Can man desire to be reconciled to God?

[Robert Snow]

And I still say your theology is for the insanely unregenerate.

You seem to be saying that anyone who doesn't believe in Calvinism isn't saved. Is that what you are saying?

Personally, I find that there are true believers in most doctrinal systems of belief, even the false doctrine of Calvinism!

 

[Skandelon]

No one here that I have read is trying to exalt man to any level near God.

Speaking of History, it was actually not until Augustine that this this so called "Calvinistic" teaching was first introduced. None of the apostolic fathers seem to hold to this doctrine, nor do the gospel writers in my opinion, but I guess that is the point of the debate.

With regard to Jesus, I think many people today forget what Jesus' main objective was while on the earth. He wasn't attempting to get a large group of faithful followers. If He had done what Peter did in Acts 2 and got 2000+ people to come to faith in Him they wouldn't have crucified him. This is why Jesus was hardening the Jews. He did this by using parables, hard teachings (i.e. eat my flesh) and rebuking them very sternly ("brood of vipers" etc). Jesus was provoking them in their rebellion so as to accomplish a greater good for all mankind. Jesus is not really the best example for evangelistic teaching because that wasn't what he was doing. He was HARDENING his audience, not drawing them. It was only when Christ was lifted up and the Spirit was sent that His purpose was to draw all men to himself. How? By telling the church to go into all the world and preach the powerful truth of the gospel, by which WHOSOEVER can believe and be saved.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Bold. Bold.

 

[Winman]

Do you think the context of "all" in John 12 is every person who ever lived? If this is so and Jesus raises everyone who the Father draws, then this would mean that everyone will be saved. it must be granted to people to come to the Son, and not everyone is granted in this saving way.

You make a huge mistake here. You take John 6:44 and interpret it to mean that Jesus will raise up all who are drawn. This is not what it says.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse does not say all that are drawn will come and be raised up. It says all that come and will be raised up were drawn. As I have pointed out many times now, Calvinist's understand scripture in exact reverse of what they really say.

Jesus did say he would draw all men to himself.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Ever go fishing? Jesus compared his ministry to fishing.

Matt 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Now, do you bring in 100% of the fish you hook when you fish? I know I don't, I am not a skillful fisherman and I've had a few jump off the hook. I've hooked them, and was pulling or drawing them in, but they jumped off the hook.

So, not every one I hook and draw in gets to the boat. And not everyone who Jesus draws will come to him. Some resist and pull away.

But 100% of the ones that I manage to bring to the boat were drawn or pulled in by me. And the same with Jesus, all those who do come to Jesus were drawn by him, and those who come he will raise up.

Go back and read John 6:44 carefully and you will see you have been interpreting it incorrectly.

 

[OldRegular]

Calvinists here have argued that mankind has the ability to believe the gospel, but without first being regenerated, they would never have the desire.

However, does the bible ever really teach this?

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

It can't be stated much more strongly than this! Believe what you will!

 

[zrs6v4]

You make a huge mistake here. You take John 6:44 and interpret it to mean that Jesus will raise up all who are drawn. This is not what it says.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse does not say all that are drawn will come and be raised up. It says all that come and will be raised up were drawn. As I have pointed out many times now, Calvinist's understand scripture in exact reverse of what they really say.

Jesus did say he would draw all men to himself.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Ever go fishing? Jesus compared his ministry to fishing.

Matt 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Now, do you bring in 100% of the fish you hook when you fish? I know I don't, I am not a skillful fisherman and I've had a few jump off the hook. I've hooked them, and was pulling or drawing them in, but they jumped off the hook.

So, not every one I hook and draw in gets to the boat. And not everyone who Jesus draws will come to him. Some resist and pull away.

But 100% of the ones that I manage to bring to the boat were drawn or pulled in by me. And the same with Jesus, all those who do come to Jesus were drawn by him, and those who come he will raise up.

Go back and read John 6:44 carefully and you will see you have been interpreting it incorrectly.

Your analogy is good. When we fish we don't catch 100%, but when God does He catches 100%. When we preach we rely on God doing the catching. If God isn't fishing we wont be very successful. It will be like trying to catch a dead fish floating on the top of the water with bait. We might snag the fish and bring it with us, but that doesn't make it alive.

John 3:3 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old?"..."That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."... the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." ... "If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

Unless someone is born again he is blind of the truth and doesn't get it. Lets look at 3 examples:

1. Nicodemus- Focused on physical birth (John 3:4)
2. The women at the well- Focused on physical water (John 4:11)
3. The Jewish leaders- focused on Physical temple (John 2:20)





John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes."

Just like God raises dead people physically, Jesus raises people Spiritually as He wishes.

John 5:25 "Truly Truly I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

The Spiritually dead people who hear Jesus will Live. The Spiritually dead people who dont hear Jesus dont live. Many people hear the word and few live.

John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; I lay down my life for the sheep, which are not of this fold; I will bring them also and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

Jesus died for His sheep. All the sheep know and hear Him including those who will hear and live in the future.

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

The Jewish leaders had the Scriptures and did not have the Spirit. If the Spirit was the Word then why did they not get it? I would say they didnt have life and thus didnt understand.

John 6:37-40 "All the Father gives Me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent me, that of all He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Those given by God will come, and those who come will be saved. In other words, when God draws people they will be saved.

John 6:44-45 "No one comes to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." "It is written in the prophets, 'And THEY SHALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."

Those who come are drawn by God and those who are drawn are saved. These people who are drawn and saved are taught by God. They have heard and learned from God and this is why they came. This is a clear inner work of God.

John 6:63-64 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe... For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."


It is the Spirit who makes people alive, just like God raises the dead physically. Our flesh is powerless and doesnt get it, period. The reason the people did not believe is because they were not granted/ drawn. This is what Jesus was talking about previously when He said that all who are drawn are raised, taught by God, saved, etc.. refer to my earlier statements.

John 8:47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

If you are not of God/ born again, you do not hear and thus do not understand.

I think John 12:32-33 "And if I am lifted up I will draw all men to Myself." "Jesus said this to indicate what kind of death he was to die."

Jesus was simply talking about those who are drawn and saved by God in the previous statements made. There is a clean flow here of teaching by John. Jesus was speaking of the death He was going to die on the cross to purchase these people who God willed to come to Jesus, be taught, be raised from the dead, be saved, etc...

I really dont know any other way to put it. I have left out some things and some obvious implications of the drawing process. For example: Only those who believe will be saved so this is why Jesus says to believe in Him numerous times. People who come to Him will be saved. Therefore, all those who come to Him believe and are saved. Not everyone will be saved. Not everyone believes. Therefore not everyone is drawn because everyone who is drawn believes and is saved.

Ezekiel 37 very very cool:

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.' "Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'"So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished We are completely cut off.'
"Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel."Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people."I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"

 

[Winman]

Your analogy is good. When we fish we don't catch 100%, but when God does He catches 100%. When we preach we rely on God doing the catching. If God isn't fishing we wont be very successful. It will be like trying to catch a dead fish floating on the top of the water with bait. We might snag the fish and bring it with us, but that doesn't make it alive.

No, even Jesus doesn't catch every fish.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Kind of a change from fishing here, but Jesus here describes himself as a hen who gathers her chicks under her wings. He says "how often would I have gathered thy children together". It was his desire to save them. But Jesus says, "and ye would not!"

The scriptures teach that a man can fight and rebel against the Holy Spirit, just like a fish can fight against you trying to reel him in. And just as a fish can jump off the hook or break the fishing-line, a man can resist and fight and get away from the Holy Spirit's drawing.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

This verse alone shows Calvinism false. Calvinism says God's grace is irresistable. But Stephen says these Jews he was preaching to do always resist the Holy Ghost. These men did not get saved when Stephen preached to them, they got angry and stoned him to death.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Here Jesus compares the kingdom of heaven to a king (the Father) who invited people to the marriage of his son (Jesus). They were called, they were bidden, they were drawn by the king. But they refused to come. The scriptures clearly show man can resist and disobey the calling and drawing of God.

The scriptures say we can quench the Spirit.

1 Thess 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Quench means to extinguish as when you put out a candle. And this verse was spoken to believers. The Holy Spirit is not irresistable, and even saved people can resist it.

People who come to Him will be saved

Correct.

Therefore, all those who come to Him believe and are saved.

Correct.

Not everyone believes.

Correct.

Therefore not everyone is drawn because everyone who is drawn believes and is saved.

False, incorrect, error.

You were doing good, but then you go right back to assuming that everyone who is drawn comes and believes. The scriptures do not say or show that.

One more time. Everyone who comes and believes was drawn. If I catch that fish, was it drawn in by me? Yes.

Not everyone drawn comes and believes. If the fish gets away, did I try to draw and pull it in? Yes. But it resisted and got away.

Read that several times until you understand they are very different things.

 

[OldRegular]

Speaking of History, it was actually not until Augustine that this this so called "Calvinistic" teaching was first introduced. None of the apostolic fathers seem to hold to this doctrine, nor do the gospel writers in my opinion, but I guess that is the point of the debate.

I don't suppose that John, Paul, and Peter would be considered among the Apostolic Fathers!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Winman]

I don't suppose that John, Paul, and Peter would be considered among the Apostolic Fathers!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

What kind of answer is that? If John, Paul, and Peter believed Calvinistic teaching, then show it from scriptures. Putting 4 laughing faces behind a meaningless statement proves nothing.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman-

There are at least two ways I see Jesus speaking-

1: From God's sovereign viewpoint (God's eye view)
2: From Man's responsibility view point (Man's eye View)

In my opinion (in all peace) I honestly believe that you are looking at it from man's persepective only and ignoring God's sovereign work. When God is sovereignly working man "will" respond responsibly.

Man's perspective:
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

lessons:

- Dont take God for granted
- Dont take God lightly
- Dont resist God and decieve yourself
- Dont reject Christ, but wholeheartedly obey what you've been given resting on God's secret grace and giving Him all glory

God's perspective:
Ephesians 1 and 2
The John Passages I listed (I think you missed the context, but again I mean that in kindness and for the sake of peace, I may be wrong)
Many passages in Romans
etc...

example of the two viewpoints connected:

For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persectuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 1 Cor. 14:9-10

Paul shows a good balance understanding that it isn't his power that carries him, but God's grace. Yet knowing it is God's grace he works even harder obeying the commands given to him. This is where many fail. Some ignore God's sovereign work while others ignore their responsibility. Both work together, but God's grace is the deeper giving Him all the glory.

My point is that I dont want you to think I ignore these responsibility passages that show that man rejects God and makes choices. What I am arguing is that we can't attribute any good thing to ourselves or we boast. Generally speaking, the reason I don't go beat my friends over the head with the gospel and get ticked off at their foolishness is because when I preach to them I am not relying on them to make some godly life changing choice alone, but rather on the power of God to give them the grace He gave me (I remember being very blind at one point as well so I can relate with them). I am not saying they have an excuse, so don't hear me wrong, they are responsible and slaves to sin. This does not mean we don't beg them or plead with them or show them that they are rejecting the Savior, because they are. I would even plead with them and show them that Jesus has His arms open wide and if they turned to Him and came freely that they would be saved. I am even more confident in my view after this debate and I have really been open minded in what you are saying as best I can, but I think you are incorrect.

 

[pinoybaptist]

If you are going to call another poster a liar, have the guts to do it openly.

You're welcome to join in the melee, snow, i just hope you have enough ice in you to withstand heat.

This is one of the greatest errors of being a Calvinist, arrogance, which you just proved!

I am not a Calvinist, they can speak for themselves. However, I think you're another one of those who go off with your mouth faster than you can think.
Try reading all the Baptist Board's threads on Calvinism and Arminianism and you'll get a clearer picture.

 

[pinoybaptist]

You seem to be saying that anyone who doesn't believe in Calvinism isn't saved. Is that what you are saying?

If you don't know what's being said, then shut up and sit down.
The Bible says you'll look more intelligent if you do.

Personally, I find that there are true believers in most doctrinal systems of belief, even the false doctrine of Calvinism!

well what do you know, we got half-something we can agree on, but allow me to expand that.
there are not only true believers in every system of religion and theology, there have always been children of God, elect from the foundation of the world, who will be in glory, even before the wonderful doctrines of grace, sometimes known as Calvinism, but is actually a misnomer, and the absolutely heretical doctrine of Arminianism ever came on the scene.
God had his children among the people who perished in the flood, among the children of Noah who scattered and populated the globe, among the Eskimos when nobody knew they existed, among the Incas and the Mayans, even among Muslims of today.

But of course, that is something you cannot swallow because it will burst your egotistical bubble that you are a child of God because you turned tohim on your own as a result of an innate goodness in you manifested by that small ounce of innate faith that caused you to turn to God.

You're all humanists, that's what you are.:laugh:

 

[pinoybaptist]

Pinoy,

You said God deserves all the credit and honor, but when I list the verses where even God himself gives man honor/credit for his faith or deeds you divert the discussion to how much you honored your parents and how we don't honor each other enough on this board.

You cited a commandment that God gave to His people, the Jews, which He gave to them to differentiate them, to separate them from the tribes that surrounded them, the Gentiles.
Does this mean the Gentiles do not honor their parents ?
I think they do, because honor and respect of elders is a basic thing.
Even animals do them.
So I told you I have honored my parents, and I believe you did yours, and everyone on this board honored their parents.
How can I have been irrelevant to what you posted ?
Unless you're implying I have not honored my parents ?

Then you say, "Crediting a man for any accomplishment is fine." Well, how is that not taking honor/credit from God?

So, by this statement you are saying that when a man credits another's accomplishment, that is God honoring that man ?
So when bin Laden honored and credited the terrorists of 9/11, that was God crediting man ?
when Hezbollah and other such organizations credit the accomplishments of the cowardly suicide bombers, that is God honoring man ?
come on, skan.
man honors man, man credits man, is different to God crediting and honoring a man who does His will, obeys Him, and gives glory to Him.
If you think you're heavenbound and think it is because you had an ingrained, innate faith in you that God did not need to plant in you despite your fallen nature, that caused you to come to Him, guess what, you've got another think coming, because in glory you will find out that God saved you for one purpose alone: His glory.

Ephesians 2:4-7 says so:

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus

This Scripture verse also throws cold water on your favorite theme: that you were not really dead in sins and turned to God on your own little bit of faith in you towards God. It says we were dead in sins, dead is dead, not just comatose, not just in shock, not just barely alive. Dead is dead. Life is absent from it.

And the reason He quickened His peole and saved them ? To show to them the great riches of His grace in His kindness.

It's all about Him. None about us. None about you, or winman, or anybody else.
Credit is Christ's, no one else.

Your exaltation of yourself and man in declaring that you have the ability, apart from the quickening power of God, to have faith reminds me of the statement of the serpent: ye shall be as gods.

The fact is, your system is not a realistic workable system. How does God reward man when its ALL him? Shouldn't the reward be only his? Should He say, "Well done my good and faithful servant," or "Well done Me?"

The fact is that the only system that God honors is the system that puts Him high above man, and the only man that God credits and calls His friend in this time world is the man that honors Him, first, second, and last.
You are dangerously close to blasphemy in your insistence that man be honored above what is due him.

My point is that you are not willing to do something that God does and commands us to do. Honor one another.

And who says I am not willing to honor you, or winman, or anyone else. I come swinging because you come swinging. If you were an unbeliever, I will probably just keep quiet and not say anything.
A karateka doesn't seek a fight simply because he knows how to fight.
Years ago, my sensei and I ran away from five unarmed drunks for their sake.
But you sure don't know this principle, do you ?
You and others here who attack Calvinism and the Doctrine of Grace with labels, instead of simply trying to refute the doctrines, and label those who adhere to them with disparaging labels, are supposed to be believers, born again, regenerate, sons of God and children of peace, but look at the manner in which you debate and argue.
With names and insults, and when you get the same thing, the other is unwilling to honor you ?
Wake up, guys, helllllooooo ??

Reward good deeds. Yes, God gives us all that we need to do good deed and to believe and for that He should be honored and glorified, but that does not remove man's responsibility.
We have a part to play. And we will be rewarded or punished accordingly. This is the problem with your system. There is really no grounds to rebuke man for their lack of faith if indeed faith is ALL God's doing and none of man's? How does it make ANY sense at all for Jesus to say, "Oh, you of little faith!" in a system where He is the irresistible dispenser of faith.

who said anything about removing man's responsibility ? and which man ? every man ? or the regenerate man. If it is the former then I beg to differ with you, because God places no responsibilities on the unelect, the unregenerate, the wicked. He has already set a date when they will be made to answer for their deeds.

If it is the latter, his responsibility is to repent, turn from his idols to God, and obey the gospel as the Holy Spirit enables him to.

Our contention lies in the fact that you argue that man has the innate capability, apart from the quickening of God, to have faith, and therefore is responsbile to God for not having faith.

Not so.

His responsibility begins when He begins to say "I see, I can see", and the only one who can make Him see is God.

And did those whom He rebuked for having little faith perish ? Did He, Jesus, consign them to the lake of fire ? No. He didn't. He simply stated their condition. Men of little faith.

How does it make any sense for God to say, "O Jerusalem, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Shouldn't He have said, "O Jersusalem, I was not willing to gather you as a hen gathers her chicks and that's why your were not willing to come."

again, you see this as Jesus speaking of Jerusalem as if Jerusalem had it within herself.
I see this as Jesus stating their spiritual condition, and their conduct according to that spiritual condition.
They will not come to Him, because they are spiritually DEAD in sins.
To them He is a stumblingblock, because their eyes are blind.

 

[Winman]

Winman-

There are at least two ways I see Jesus speaking-

1: From God's sovereign viewpoint (God's eye view)
2: From Man's responsibility view point (Man's eye View)

In my opinion (in all peace) I honestly believe that you are looking at it from man's persepective only and ignoring God's sovereign work. When God is sovereignly working man "will" respond responsibly.

Man's perspective:
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

lessons:

- Dont take God for granted
- Dont take God lightly
- Dont resist God and decieve yourself
- Dont reject Christ, but wholeheartedly obey what you've been given resting on God's secret grace and giving Him all glory

God's perspective:
Ephesians 1 and 2
The John Passages I listed (I think you missed the context, but again I mean that in kindness and for the sake of peace, I may be wrong)
Many passages in Romans
etc...

example of the two viewpoints connected:

For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persectuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 1 Cor. 14:9-10

Paul shows a good balance understanding that it isn't his power that carries him, but God's grace. Yet knowing it is God's grace he works even harder obeying the commands given to him. This is where many fail. Some ignore God's sovereign work while others ignore their responsibility. Both work together, but God's grace is the deeper giving Him all the glory.

My point is that I dont want you to think I ignore these responsibility passages that show that man rejects God and makes choices. What I am arguing is that we can't attribute any good thing to ourselves or we boast. Generally speaking, the reason I don't go beat my friends over the head with the gospel and get ticked off at their foolishness is because when I preach to them I am not relying on them to make some godly life changing choice alone, but rather on the power of God to give them the grace He gave me (I remember being very blind at one point as well so I can relate with them). I am not saying they have an excuse, so don't hear me wrong, they are responsible and slaves to sin. This does not mean we don't beg them or plead with them or show them that they are rejecting the Savior, because they are. I would even plead with them and show them that Jesus has His arms open wide and if they turned to Him and came freely that they would be saved. I am even more confident in my view after this debate and I have really been open minded in what you are saying as best I can, but I think you are incorrect.

Verses Acts 7:51 and Matt 23:37 are not man's point of view. That is God's holy scriptures. When Stephen said ye do always resist the Holy Ghost, he was filled with the Holy Spirit. He was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the scriptures say so.

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Acts 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.

Verse 10 says Stephen spoke in the power of the Holy Spirit. When it says here they were not able to resist the Holy Spirit, it does not mean they weren't able to resist the gospel, it means they weren't able to contradict him. He proved by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ. This made them very angry and they accused him of blasphemy. This alone shows they were not regenerated.

Acts 6:11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
15 And all that sat in the council, looking stedfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.

The Holy Ghost will almost always have an affect on a man. Some men will be convicted and come to Christ. Others will get angry and stubbornly resist. And that is the case here, they got angry and accused Stephen of blasphemy which is not true. Then he preached a long sermon to them in Acts chapter 7. But instead of being convicted and coming to Christ, these men resisted the truth and conviction of the Holy Spirit and the scriptures. This is why Stephen said to them:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

When Stephen said this he was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, these were not his words or opinions, these were the words of God himself speaking through him. But man can resist the Holy Spirit. These men did. They got very angry, gnashed their teeth and rushed upon him. They dragged him outside the city and stoned him. And Stephen, still under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost looked up and saw Jesus himself standing beside God the Father.

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Some people are convicted by the Holy Spirit and come to Jesus. Other people are proud. They do not like to hear that they are wicked sinners, it destroys the self-righteous image they have of themselves. These people will get very angry and hateful. We see it all the time on this forum when you present scripture that contradicts some people's personal doctrine. They don't like it. They think they are right and they aren't going to listen to anyone who contradicts them. They get angry. It happens all the time right here.

The scriptures do teach that man can resist the Holy Spirit. The teaching that the grace of God is irresistable is a man made doctrine not supported by scripture. It is mentioned, many, many times in the scriptures.

Look further in Acts when Paul preached to the Jews. They wouldn't listen, so Paul said he would go preach to the Gentiles who would listen.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Paul said the same again to another group of Jews who would not listen.

Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Do you see here Paul said they have closed their eyes? It is not that they couldn't hear and believe, they stubbornly refused to do so. So Paul said he would go to the Gentiles and said they "will" hear. It is not a matter of ability, it is a matter of the free-will every man has to choose either to hear and believe, or to reject and not believe the word of God.

So, this doctrine that man cannot resist the Holy Spirit is utterly unscriptural.

 

[Skandelon]

How can I have been irrelevant to what you posted ?
Unless you're implying I have not honored my parents ?

That is beside the point. You were arguing that ALL honor is GODS and no one elses...and I was merely showing that honor goes to others as well. Parents, each other etc. For you to start talking about how you honor your parents and that we should honor each other on this board you ignored the fact that in the last post you just made the argument that God should get it all. You are contradicting yourself. Either its really should ALL go to GOD or maybe, just maybe, God is okay with us giving honor to others. Maybe our God is secure enough, sovereign enough, powerful enough and loving enough to allow us to give honor and praise to those who deserve it. All the while we all agree that God is the ultimate One to be praised and exalted for all the good that comes. If that was your point, fine, say so, but don't say that no glory/reward/honor/credit should go to anyone but God, because that is not biblical.

So, by this statement you are saying that when a man credits another's accomplishment, that is God honoring that man ?
So when bin Laden honored and credited the terrorists of 9/11, that was God crediting man ?when Hezbollah and other such organizations credit the accomplishments of the cowardly suicide bombers, that is God honoring man ?
come on, skan.

No, but when Paul is writing the inspired words of scripture is crediting Abraham for his faith in God then maybe, just maybe, God is okay with that. Surely this argument wasn't a serious one, was it? You were joking, right?

This Scripture verse also throws cold water on your favorite theme: that you were not really dead in sins and turned to God on your own little bit of faith in you towards God. It says we were dead in sins, dead is dead, not just comatose, not just in shock, not just barely alive. Dead is dead. Life is absent from it.

Strawman attack. You know better. Why don't you try to restate my actual view and then maybe I will take you seriously enough to respond further to your posts.

You are dangerously close to blasphemy in your insistence that man be honored above what is due him.

Oh, its blasphemy to do what Paul did? Its blasphemy to do what the writer of Hebrews did?

I'm not asking you or anyone else to give MORE honor than "what is due him." But you are not willing to give ANY HONOR to ANYONE except God and THAT is what I have a problem with Pinoy. What measure of honor do you give your parents if NONE is allowed to go to them? What measure of honor did Paul give Abraham if NONE is allowed to go to him?

I know you think you are defending God and his Glory, but you and your pious snobbery are actually under cutting the clear teaching of scripture.

Do me one favor brother. Answer these two questions:
1. Explain to me why God gives men a reward in heaven if your system is true?
2. Explain to me why God punishes men for a lack of faith if your system is true?

Our contention lies in the fact that you argue that man has the innate capability, apart from the quickening of God, to have faith, and therefore is responsbile to God for not having faith.

Nope. You still don't even understand that which you condemn. We both believe that God must "quicken" or "awaken" our "dead" hearts. You just believe that is done irresistibly and without any real choice on the part of man. That part is our contention. I believe the gospel message is powerful enough to "quicken" anyone who hears it. You believe that God must do a work of irresistible regeneration. That is our point of contention.

And did those whom He rebuked for having little faith perish ? Did He, Jesus, consign them to the lake of fire ? No. He didn't. He simply stated their condition. Men of little faith.

Well, there were times Jesus was speaking to his disciples (which is another discussion) but there were other times when he was rebuking the lost for their unwillingness to come to him in faith. That is what I'm referring to.

again, you see this as Jesus speaking of Jerusalem as if Jerusalem had it within herself.
I see this as Jesus stating their spiritual condition, and their conduct according to that spiritual condition.
They will not come to Him, because they are spiritually DEAD in sins.
To them He is a stumblingblock, because their eyes are blind.

And you have yet to address all the passages that I showed you which talk about how they BECOME CALLOUSED over a period of time and that "otherwise" they might have repented. And that the Jews were contrasted with the Gentiles who "will listen." And how the judicial hardening of God was temporary and that some of the Jew who were hardened might be provoked to envy and saved (Rm 11). Honestly, I don't think this will do you any good. When I believed as you did I was blinded to this too because I was so set on winning the argument and being right. If you can ever back away from this debate mode and just restudy scripture with a real objective spirit and seek truth, maybe you will learn something....as will I.

 

[Winman]

This Scripture verse also throws cold water on your favorite theme: that you were not really dead in sins and turned to God on your own little bit of faith in you towards God. It says we were dead in sins, dead is dead, not just comatose, not just in shock, not just barely alive. Dead is dead. Life is absent from it.

One of the greatest errors of Calvinism, comparing a person dead in sin to an unliving corpse. Jesus himself said the dead can hear his voice, and that those who do hear will live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Read that verse carefully and slowly. Did Jesus say the living will hear his voice? No. He said the dead shall hear his voice.

Calvinism teaches the opposite. Calvinism teaches only the spiritually living can hear the voice of God, but Jesus himself said the spritually dead can hear his voice, and to those who will listen he will give life.

Once again, Calvinism teaches exactly the opposite of what scripture says.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman-

When I say the Bible at times speaks from human viewpoint, I do not mean less God-Breathed or fallible. I mean that God is speaking to our responsibility and reminding us that we do make conscious choices and that we are guilty of sin, etc...

I do understand what you are with saying, but again, with respect, you must ignore much scripture to stay consistent with your view. If our theology rested on a few passages such as those you quoted and a narrow view of God's purposes, then I would probably agree with you. That isnt the case.

The problem is that we must account for all of God's Word, as you know. This gives everyone problems when facing verses that confronts their theology they had figured out (sarcasm).

So, with that said, If we ignored many Scriptures, I would agree with you on your Acts and Mathew passages. In fact at one point, I had a similar view as you have. Again, we can't deny that people reject the Holy Spirit and are stubborn, and get angry at the Gospel. I would have to make an assumption of my own on what that means beyond that or I can look at other Scripture. The point of this particular passage (Acts 7) was not to show God's sovereign work in one's heart, nor is every passage. For this we have to look at other passages. I don't want to try to pour my views on it and miss the point, but for the purpose of our discussion, if we connect Scripture (theology) I can Scripturally make the connection that if God would have worked in their hearts then they would have accepted Stevens message and not killed Him. I think speaking of that in this context on either of our views is not relevant because that wasn't the purpose as I said.

Deut. 29:29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this Law."

There are two ways to look at anything as I just stated
1- secret things= God's sovereign work, His will, His providence, His mysteries. In this category, we see certain Scriptures speaking in this sense such as when He speaks of His elect, His drawing and saving, His upholding people to the end (cant lose salvation). etc...

2- Revealed things- This is what God has given us to know and focus on. Examples are the Scriptures, the Law, the Gospel. This would include our responsibility and what we live by. Some verses in this viewpoint seem to imply that we can lose our salvation and that our free will is the deciding factor. etc....

think about it.

It is a fact that the revealed things work after the counsel of the secret things. Or in other words, everything works after the counsel of God's will. Everything doesn't work after the counsel of our will.

You can show me passages all day and there are many that almost imply that we can lose our salvation or that we must reach out to God without Him regenerating us. If we simply just open up to all Scripture I think that we wont cripple the responsibility passages or the Sovereign passages, but see that they work together in harmony, God's sovereignty as it must, is the deciding factor.

I think we could go on for weeks on this, but I think it would be best that we agree to disagree at this point.

 

[Winman]

I do understand what you are with saying, but again, with respect, you must ignore much scripture to stay consistent with your view. If our theology rested on a few passages such as those you quoted and a narrow view of God's purposes, then I would probably agree with you. That isnt the case.

The problem is that we must account for all of God's Word, as you know. This gives everyone problems when facing verses that confronts their theology they had figured out (sarcasm).

What scripture am I ignoring? If you have scripture that says a man cannot resist the Holy Spirit, I would love to see it. If you have scripture that says man cannot resist God's will, please show it.

Don't just say something like this without providing scripture to back it up.

 

[zrs6v4]

One of the greatest errors of Calvinism, comparing a person dead in sin to an unliving corpse. Jesus himself said the dead can hear his voice, and that those who do hear will live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Read that verse carefully and slowly. Did Jesus say the living will hear his voice? No. He said the dead shall hear his voice.

Calvinism teaches the opposite. Calvinism teaches only the spiritually living can hear the voice of God, but Jesus himself said the spritually dead can hear his voice, and to those who will listen he will give life.

Once again, Calvinism teaches exactly the opposite of what scripture says.

Just so you know, you are making pretty large errors and missing the context. I just went through all of this above with the flow of the book of John.

-The dead that will hear are the elect because God makes them alive.

-5:21 "Just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

- Not everyone who is dead is going to live/be saved.

- No where does Jesus say the dead can hear His voice. He is saying that the dead will hear... why?... because He is going to give them life and cause them to hear.. Why did Lazarus rise? Because He was resurrected. Why did he hear? because he was ressurection by the power of God's command to rise. Now with John 5:21 in mind, how does a dead soul live and hear? Just as it says, and that is why in verse 25 the dead hear, not because they were alive or because they can hear, but because gives them life.

- The problem is that we don't compare a dead person to an unliving corpse. The definition of dead is - unliving.

My point is be careful to twist things all up. You are wrong in many ways in your statements. I would suggest step back from the boards (I have had to many times for this reason) and get the whole Calvinism nudge off of your shoulder (we all do this ). This isnt a battle against Calvinism this is personally getting to know and understand God's Word and applying it. We can't go into an arguement with I can't be wrong and harden our hearts by only looking at Scripture through our lense (God help us!). I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but this is what I sense, and you don't have to openly confess this, in fact please don't, but consider it secretly.

 

[HankD]

John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

It can't be stated much more strongly than this! Believe what you will!

If you isolate the verse from this thought:

What is the Father's criteria for:

Calling an individual?
Giving an individual the ability to come to Christ?

In these passages the choice of salvation originates in the Father.
But we don't know the criteria He applies for those whom He chooses.

Election and/or predestination is not a good answer because it only pushes the series of events leading to regeneration a step ot two back.

Why did/does He elect/predestinate and what is the criteria?

Most Calvinist say it is "unconditional".
I disagree with that point:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:​

The Scripture indicates that there is a counsel of purpose behind it.
Those chosen for salvation is not a roll of the dice (so to speak).
God has His reasons and purpose.​

Election IMO is not unconditional, the criteria however is not revealed apart from the counsel of his own will for the purpose of His own glorification.​

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

italics mean not in the original language mss.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.​

Whether He chose each individual on the basis the He knew we would believe or not believe if given the choice or some other reason there must have been a reason or why "the counsel of his own will" rather than simply "his own will".

Since the criteria of selection (in or out of the time continuum) it is not distinctly and definitively revealed other than "the counsel of his own will" apart from the end product of His glory, pleasure, etc... we will argue the answer until we are "blue in the face" or Christ returns or we go to be with Him (whichever come first).​

Obviously the foundational criteria was the helplessness and inability of the human race to save ourselves but the criteria of the "whosever" part of "whosoever will " is still a mystery (at least to me).

Does anyone believe it was just whimsical as He considered each one of us?

HankD