Can man desire to be reconciled to God?

[pinoybaptist]

I asked, "Why does God give rewards in your system?" You answered:

This is your question: Explain to me why God gives men a reward in heaven if your system is true?

Don't do an Eve on me, now, skan. :tongue3:

So, you admit God gives rewards...

Show me anything I said, post number and all, where I denied God gives rewards.
My contention has been that only God deserves all and any kind of honor and praise, and you opposed this vehemently.

My point has been proven. God GIVES credit/glory/praise to people and DOES not reserve it all for himself.

You haven't proved anything yet. Hold that party, skan.

Again, God says to us at the end of this life, "Well done my good and faithful servant."

Because that subject has served his king well, to the King's praise and honor, not that subject's own credit.

 

[zrs6v4]

zrs6v4

OK, I am going to show you one single verse.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Ghost SINCE they believed.

Now, if Calvinism is true, and a person must first be regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they can possibly believe, then a person would also have to believe that the apostle Paul was completely ignorant of this, and did not properly understand salvation.

This question Paul asked is absolutely absurd if the doctrines of Calvinism are true.

This is a tricky verse, but I don't believe that these people had heard of Jesus yet because they were only Baptized in John's repentance looking forward to the coming Messiah. They did not know about the death and resurrection yet and had not received the New Covenant promise of the Spirit as Acts 2. When they did hear the Gospel and believe they received the Holy Spirit and had the same results as those at the Pentecost. When they did receive the Holy Spirit, what part of this verse makes it impossible to be regenerated before believing in the Lord Jesus? I would assume that you are assuming that they already believed in Jesus and were saved, but just didn't know about the Holy Spirit.

I would say that there would be some major issues if they had been saved and not received the Holy Spirit of promise to those who believe. I also do believe there is a difference between the regenerating work and the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Regenerating is not sealing although many non-cals highly disagree.

 

[Skandelon]

This is your question: Explain to me why God gives men a reward in heaven if your system is true?

Don't do an Eve on me, now, skan. :tongue3:



Show me anything I said, post number and all, where I denied God gives rewards.
My contention has been that only God deserves all and any kind of honor and praise, and you opposed this vehemently.



You haven't proved anything yet. Hold that party, skan.



Because that subject has served his king well, to the King's praise and honor, not that subject's own credit.

:BangHead:

Its like talking to a wall.

The very fact that God does gives reward, that Paul give Abraham credit, that Hebrews 11 gives honor to to great cloud of witnesses is PROOF that others, besides God, get praise/credit/honor. How is that not clear to you? We BOTH acknowledge that God has part in all these good things, but there is NOTHING wrong with giving men honor/credit/reward, is there? If there is then why did Paul (and so many others) do it?

 

[Robert Snow]

:BangHead:

Its like talking to a wall.

You are correct. You, as well as others, have made your points and proven it with Scripture. To continue to argue with Pinoybaptist will be a waste of time and effort.

No matter how well you show him the errors or his Calvinistic beliefs, all you will get in return in nonsense and accusal of being a heretic. His lack of love toward the brethren shows the fallacy of his position. Were he correct, the fruit would be obedience to Christ in his dealings with other Christians. His refusal to show the love Christ commanded does much to show the errors of his beliefs.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[Jon-Marc]

If there is no desire in a person to be reconciled to God, then why would that person care? I believe God puts that desire in everyone, which is why even the most promitive people have always believed in and worshipped whatever they considered to be who or what made them and watches over them. Sometimes it might have been out of fear--to try to appease any unknown "god(s)" that were out there. Many choose to ignore the knowledge of a "Higher Being" and deny such an existence.

God does not force anyone to accept Him. He has made and continues to make Himself known to mankind--calling them to Himself by way of His Holy Spirit and offering forgiveness and eternal life, and yet many choose to reject that offer. Like the two-year-old, they say "I can do it myself."

 

[Winman]

This is a tricky verse, but I don't believe that these people had heard of Jesus yet because they were only Baptized in John's repentance looking forward to the coming Messiah. They did not know about the death and resurrection yet and had not received the New Covenant promise of the Spirit as Acts 2. When they did hear the Gospel and believe they received the Holy Spirit and had the same results as those at the Pentecost. When they did receive the Holy Spirit, what part of this verse makes it impossible to be regenerated before believing in the Lord Jesus? I would assume that you are assuming that they already believed in Jesus and were saved, but just didn't know about the Holy Spirit.

I would say that there would be some major issues if they had been saved and not received the Holy Spirit of promise to those who believe. I also do believe there is a difference between the regenerating work and the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Regenerating is not sealing although many non-cals highly disagree.

You are missing the point altogether.

Why would Paul ask a question like this? If the doctrines of Calvinism are true and that a man can only believe if regenerated and enabled by the Holy Spirit to do so, do you not think Paul would know this? We are not talking about people who post here, we are talking about Paul, the greatest theologian ever besides the Lord himself.

If Paul knew that a man could only believe if regenerated by the Holy Spirit, it would be utterly absurd to ask believers if they had received the Holy Ghost 'since' they believed.

But Paul did ask.

So obviously Paul believed a man can have faith and believe without the Holy Spirit.

But perhaps that is because Paul himself did not receive the Holy Ghost until three days after he believed on Jesus.

By the way, you said something 100% scriptural in your post. You said,

When they did hear the Gospel and believe they received the Holy Spirit and had the same results as those at the Pentecost

Exactly right. After they heard and believed the gospel they received the Spirit. There is hope for you yet.

 

[Winman]

I would say that there would be some major issues if they had been saved and not received the Holy Spirit of promise to those who believe. I also do believe there is a difference between the regenerating work and the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Regenerating is not sealing although many non-cals highly disagree.

Well, you have a major issue then, because the scriptures clearly show many people who believed who had not received the Holy Spirit yet.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

These people were believers but had not received the Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. That occured after his resurrection.

There are many examples of this.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

Not only did these Samaritans believe before the Holy Spirit was given to them, the scriptures say WHY they believed, for the sayings of the woman.

John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

These people believed on Jesus because of the miracles he performed. But they did not have the Holy Spirit.

You can choose to believe people are regenerated by the Spirit to have the ability to believe, but there is not even one single verse in all the scriptures that says this. If you think there is, I would love to see it. But to the contrary, there are many scriptures that say people believed on Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given. And in many cases these verses explain why they believed. Not once do they ever say a person was regenerated by the Spirit to believe.

No, people have the ability to believe. The Samaritans believed because of the saying of the woman who spoke to Jesus at the well. There was no magical, mystical event here. The scriptures specifically explain why they believed.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman- I think John 7:39 was your best point. Do you think the Spirit was at work at all before Jesus was lifted up? I would assume the recieving of the Spirit was refering to the full power and ministry at Pentecost. We cannot deny the Spirit was at work within people during Jesus' ministry.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman-

I also wanted to ask if you think people can be saved without hearing about Jesus and simply not have the Holy Spirit?

With that said, I think Paul was simply asking them if they believed in the Gospel. There is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved.

 

[Johnv]

Can man desire to be reconciled to God?

I desired to be reconciled to God prior to my accepting Christ. Whether my desire was a matter of the Holy Spirit making it so, or whether it was solely on my actions alone, is a matter of debate I leave to others.

 

[David Michael Harris]

The scriptures show:

Hearing the word of God-----> Faith---------> Receiving the Spirit

Calvinism teaches:

Receiving the Spirit----------> Faith (and desire) ---------> Hearing the word of God

I would agree to that, that is where I would disagree.

We are not robots and God never forces us in that sense.

I think my new year attempt at a promise might be to never argue Calvinism/Arminianism again, bet I fail in the first week, it's almost irrisistable.

Anyone noticed there is a spell check for the word Calvinism but not Arminianism.

I am studying Mediate Theology at the moment as proposed by Dr Gordon Olson. It's very interesting Getting the Gospel Right.

 

[Johnv]

The problem with winman's view of Calvinism is that it assumes a linear timeline. Calvinism doesn't limit God's sovereignty to a timeline. It doesn't presume that God works in an "if/then" type of existence.

 

[webdog]

The problem with winman's view of Calvinism is that it assumes a linear timeline. Calvinism doesn't limit God's sovereignty to a timeline. It doesn't presume that God works in an "if/then" type of existence.

I disagree. I believe both calvinism and arminianism are linear theologies. One looks through the corridors of time, and one determines such corridors.