Can mankind understand the gospel message?

[Yelsew]

The question that needs a precise answer is this: Did He or didn't He? Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didn't He? If He did, then it was not for all the world, for then all the world would be saved. (Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 47.)

A TOTALLY INCORRECT concept! This shows the author does not understand the purpose of substitutionary sacrifice.
The purpose of Subsitutionary Sacrifice was never salvation of the one offering the sacrifice, but rather atonement for the sins of the one offering the sacrifice, so that God would look favorably upon the sinner. No where in scripture has a blood sacrifice ever saved anyone! Jesus sacrifice of himself did not, an cannot save a single person!

Man's works, no matter how spectacular will not, nor cannot save him.

That leaves FAITH (belief in Jesus) alone as the means of Salvation of man. "There is no other name under heaven whereby ye must be saved".

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Jesus sacrifice of himself did not, and cannot, save a single person!

Yelsew, you are seriously and dangerously wrong in that statement.

Matthew 26:28(NASB)
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Acts 20:28(NASB)
28 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Romans 5:9(NASB)
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Ephesians 1:7(NASB)
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:19(NASB)
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

Hebrews 9:14(NASB)
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 10:19(NASB)
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 13:12(NASB)
12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

1 Peter 1:18-19(NASB)
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

1 John 1:7(NASB)
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5(NASB)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

Revelation 5:9(NASB)
9 And they *sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

May God have mercy on us all.

 

[Yelsew]

The Blood of Jesus has not converted one person from sinner to saint! Nor has the Blood of Jesus saved one person from Hell.

No one even believes in the blood of Jesus until they first believe in Jesus himself and who and what Jesus is.

Show me in scripture where it is the blood of Jesus that saves, or that the death of Jesus is what saves.

The scriptures you posted, all out of context, do not say the atonement saves, or gives anyone eternal life. Jesus says it is believing in Him that saves.

 

[KenH]

Yes, the verses I presented do teach that the precious blood of Jesus saves. You are spiritually blind, Yelsew. That should be evident to everyone who reads this forum now, including the Arminians.

I guess you don't sing -

"What can wash away my sin,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus"

"For my pardon this I see,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus"

"O precious is the flow,
That makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know,
Nothing but the blood of Jesus."

And I guess you don't sing -

"Are you washed in the blood,
In the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb?
Are your garments spotless,
Are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?"

May God have mercy on us all.

 

[KenH]

***Double post***

 

[Yelsew]

"What can wash away my sin, Nothing but the blood of Jesus"
"For my pardon this I see, Nothing but the blood of Jesus"
"O precious is the flow, That makes me white as snow;
No other fount I know, Nothing but the blood of Jesus."

These are not salvation words, they are forgiveness words dealing with atonement and not dealing with Salvation.

And I guess you don't sing -

"Are you washed in the blood, In the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb?
Are your garments spotless, Are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?"

These are also not salvation words. They, too, deal with atonement of sins and not Salvation. Atonement does not equal Salvation

Please cease your false accusations!

 

[DanielFive]

Yelsew,

You are obviously not hearing what I or anyone else is saying.

I'm assuming from your name that you have at least some respect for John Wesley.

This is my final appeal to you on this thread, I'm not going to waste any more time, or give you any more excuses to make the kind of remarks you are making.


EPHESIANS 2:1

And you hath He quickened who were dead in tresspasses and sins;


I have taken the following quote from John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible.

2:1 And he hath quickened you - In the nineteenth and twentieth verses of the preceding chapter, St. Paul spoke of God's working in them by the same almighty power whereby he raised Christ from the dead. On the mention of this he, in the fulness of his heart, runs into a flow of thought concerning the glory of Christ's exaltation in the three following verses. He here resumes the thread of his discourse. Who were dead - Not only diseased, but dead; absolutely void of all spiritual life; and as incapable of quickening yourselves, as persons literally dead. In trespasses and sins - Sins seem to be spoken chiefly of the gentiles, who knew not God; trespasses, of the Jews, who had his law, and yet regarded it not, Ephesians 2:5. The latter herein obeyed the flesh; the former, the princeof the power of the air.

CLICK HERE FOR LINK

I suggest you also check out Verse 13, and Wesley's explanation, it might stop you going any further down the road you are on at the moment.

It is kind of ironic that Wesley was Arminian don't you think.

In Christ,

Enda

[ April 27, 2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: enda ]

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The question that needs a precise answer is this: Did He or didn't He? Did Christ actually make a substitutionary sacrifice for sins or didn't He? If He did, then it was not for all the world, for then all the world would be saved. (Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 47.)

A TOTALLY INCORRECT concept! This shows the author does not understand the purpose of substitutionary sacrifice.
The purpose of Subsitutionary Sacrifice was never salvation of the one offering the sacrifice, but rather atonement for the sins of the one offering the sacrifice, so that God would look favorably upon the sinner. No where in scripture has a blood sacrifice ever saved anyone! Jesus sacrifice of himself did not, an cannot save a single person!

Man's works, no matter how spectacular will not, nor cannot save him.

That leaves FAITH (belief in Jesus) alone as the means of Salvation of man. "There is no other name under heaven whereby ye must be saved". </font>[/QUOTE]Wow! Yelsew, I've must apologize to you. I've been really overlooking your posts on the atonement issue because I have always believed that should not be the focus of our debate. I've really centered my study on the issue of depravity, so its possible that I have overlooked the very valuable point you make here.

So you are saying; Though atonement was necessary to provide salvation to the world it is not the means by which anyone in the world is saved. Man is saved through the means of faith and faith alone. Atonement is about appeasing the wrath of God for the sins, so that he can justly save those who have faith. I think I'm following you here. I'll need to do some more study on it, but it finally clicked as to what you have been saying.

Thanks.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
The Blood of Jesus has not converted one person from sinner to saint! Nor has the Blood of Jesus saved one person from Hell.

No one even believes in the blood of Jesus until they first believe in Jesus himself and who and what Jesus is.

Show me in scripture where it is the blood of Jesus that saves, or that the death of Jesus is what saves.

The scriptures you posted, all out of context, do not say the atonement saves, or gives anyone eternal life. Jesus says it is believing in Him that saves.

Ken and Enda,

I understand your harsh reactions to Yelsew. I felt the same way about his views on the atonement. But put down your stones for just a second and really consider what it is he is saying.

First, I don't believe he is saying the the blood of Christ (atonement) is not necessary for salvation (please correct me Yelsew if I misstate your position).

It is necessary, I think we all agree that it is, but is it all that is needed? No.

There must be faith. Faith is the one condition that must be met.

You believe that it is a condition met by God in a select few. We believe that it is a condition that man must choose by faith. Either way, faith is required for salvation, so Yelsew's statements about the atonement not being what saves can't be incorrect by even the Calvinistic system.

But consider the OT sacrificial system. Did God accept the atonement if it wasn't offered in faith? No. Does that mean the atonement sacrifice in itself wasn't good? No. It means they did not believe the atonement was going to do any good, so for them it didn't. The atonement failed because they did not believe in its effectiveness.

Well, the perfect atonement has already been fulfilled by Christ once for all. What is left? Faith. Will man believe that the atonement was good and effective. If they do, it will be credited to them as righteousness and they will be saved.

Make sense?

 

[William C]

I just thought of a much simplier way of saying this Yelsew, tell me what you think:

The atonement alone does not save, but faith in the power of the atonement does.

Therefore, Christ could indeed have died for the sins of every person and not every person be saved.

Questions:
1. On what grounds would they be condemned? On the grounds that they did not believe in the power of their atonement sacrifice.

2. For what sins will they suffer for in hell? Primarily for the sin of unbelief, though I'm sure there is no problem is saying that they suffer for all their sins since the atonement sacrifice is only effective for those who believe it. Right?

This view would answer this verse:
2Pe 2:1 -
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.

 

[Yelsew]

I suggest you also check out Verse 13, and Wesley's explanation, it might stop you going any further down the road you are on at the moment.

And what road do you see me traveling down? I don't feel like I am 'traveling down', It is with much labor and burden that I feel as though I am traveling up and not down.

Respect for Wesley? As much as for any other man!

 

[DanielFive]

Right, just ignore him too then. I suuggest you change your name.

 

[Yelsew]

So you are saying; Though atonement was necessary to provide salvation to the world it is not the means by which anyone in the world is saved. Man is saved through the means of faith and faith alone. Atonement is about appeasing the wrath of God for the sins, so that he can justly save those who have faith. I think I'm following you here. I'll need to do some more study on it, but it finally clicked as to what you have been saying.

Bro. Bill, Thank you for understanding most of what I've been trying to say. There are a few points however that need further clarification.
1) Atonement is not necessary for God to save man in any sense other than the debt for man's sin is paid by Jesus' atoning sacrifice. By Jesus paying the debt for our sins, there is nothing we can do for ourselves, he has done it all.

Believe it or Not! Meaning that man has an obligation to believe in Jesus and the final work of God for our salvation, or not! Most do not grasp the simplicity of God's salvation of man. Yes, He truly did everything and there is nothing we can do. Believe it or Not! Therefore, by believing it, thus believing in Jesus, God counts our faith as Righteousness just as he did Abraham's faith to him. If one has faith in Jesus, but does not behave in accordance with that faith, his faith is the same as dead faith. Whereas, if one behaves in accordance with one's faith in Jesus, his works will be the works of righteousness that bring Glory unto the very name of Jesus and to God the Father.

First, I don't believe he is saying the the blood of Christ (atonement) is not necessary for salvation (please correct me Yelsew if I misstate your position).

You are correct, let me amplify a little.

One cannot enter heaven under the burden of sin and expect to pass muster at the judgment. Therefore Jesus' atonement pays the debt for our sin so that we do not face the Judgment Throne of God with that debt on our head. That leaves God's Judgment of us based solely on our belief in Jesus. "For by faith are ye saved...." Now then, ALL mankind will be Judged by God, therefore the Atonement is for the sins of ALL mankind so that God's Justice is fairly applied to all based on the faith or lack of faith one has in Jesus.

That is not to say that our deeds are not Judged, for truly they are, but Salvation is by faith alone, and not by deeds good or bad that we have done.

But consider the OT sacrificial system. Did God accept the atonement if it wasn't offered in faith? No. Does that mean the atonement sacrifice in itself wasn't good? No. It means they did not believe the atonement was going to do any good, so for them it didn't. The atonement failed because they did not believe in its effectiveness.

That lack of belief led to behavior that was not acceptable in the eyes of God. The same thing applies to us. The atonement of Christ's blood is a once for ALL atonement that pays for our sins. We as believers are no longer compelled by sin, and our behavior should absolutely reflect our belief. If it does not, then our belief is brought into question by those with whom we associate. If our behavior is Christ-like, then there is no doubt about what we believe, and in whom we believe. In the OT as in the NT God looketh on the heart for our sacrifice, and not the altar.

I just thought of a much simplier way of saying this Yelsew, tell me what you think:

The atonement alone does not save, but faith in the power of the atonement does.

Therefore, Christ could indeed have died for the sins of every person and not every person be saved.

Close, but let me stress that if Atonement was all that existed, it could not save even one. God said that blood sacrifice is not what pleases Him, but rather a believing heart. If Faith was all that existed it could and does save whosoever believeth. Together, Atonement coupled to faith is God's perfect plan because there are no works that man can do that he could boast about. Atonement without faith is strictly the payment for sin, and it applies to ALL mankind.

Questions:
1. On what grounds would they be condemned? On the grounds that they did not believe in the power of their atonement sacrifice.

No, it is as Jesus said in John 3:18

"No one who believes in him will be judged;
but whoever does not believe is judged already,
because that person does not believe
in the Name of God's only Son."

2. For what sins will they suffer for in hell? Primarily for the sin of unbelief, though I'm sure there is no problem is saying that they suffer for all their sins since the atonement sacrifice is only effective for those who believe it. Right?

They will suffer for the sin of unbelief only. I believe that unbelief is equal to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

This view would answer this verse:
2Pe 2:1 -
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.

I'm not sure how you are applying this scripture. Are you saying that what I've said is heresy, or that some other point of view is the heresy?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by enda:
Right, just ignore him too then. I suuggest you change your name.

What would you have me do regarding the long dead Wesley?
Did he die to save me?
Did he rise again so that I might have life?
Is He sitting at the right hand of the Father?
Is there some edict that I must bow to him and pay homage as the Muslims do Muhammad?

What is it you would have me do? I usually behave on this BBS in a civil manner so long as others are civil to me.

Have I blasphemed the Holy Spirit?
Have I blasphemed the Holy Father God?
Have I been disrespectful to those in Authority over me?

What is it you want me to do that I am not doing?

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Yelsew:

2Pe 2:1 -
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.

I'm not sure how you are applying this scripture. Are you saying that what I've said is heresy, or that some other point of view is the heresy?

I'm saying that this verse seems to support your view that the atonement "bought" everyone, even those who are destroyed.

I'm starting to understand you views and I think they may be much closer to what the scripture is saying than most people here think. I'm still studying on the issue. Thanks.