Can Non Calvinists Believe the Gospel Of The Kingdom? Is that Even Possible?

[MrW]

That is not what we see in Heb 11 regarding the OT saints.

Using your stated view please explain
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. Genesis 5:21-24

Enoch was an exception to the rule, as was Elijah, and even John the Baptist. As they say, the exception proves the rule.

Enoch and Elijah's experience serve as prophetic examples of the future translation of the church to Heaven. I think it's safe to say Enoch can represent Gentile (non-Jewish) believers while Elijah represents saved Jews, as the church from the time of Paul and Peter has fulfilled the mystery of Jew and Gentile becoming one new man in Christ. The idea of God accepting Gentiles was horrible to Jews, yet that is what God did in Christ--Jew and Gentile are alike in being sinners and alike in being saved through the Lord Jesus Christ, one new man. In other words, Jews and Gentiles all came from Adam, and thus were born sinners, and when Jews or Gentiles believe on Christ, they are transferred from Adam into Christ (He is the Second and Last Adam). In Adam, all were born sinners. In Christ, all are born again as saints, no matter if they are Jew or Gentile, male or female, etc.

Back to your statement above, Enoch (and Elijah) were clearly exceptions. Their experience was not the common experience of humanity, nor even of a subset of humanity. In the case of John the Baptizer, he was filled with the Holy Spirit from Elizabeth's womb, but that was not the experience of Old Testament saints. John was chosen of God to be the forerunner for Christ and was made an exception, not the rule for OT saints.

 

[Zaatar71]

I didn't say that.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that.

I am saying Calvinism does not equal Christianity because Calvinism DOES get many things wrong.

You believe it gets many things wrong. We can take a look at that. Have you done any study on this? Or is it just a casual observation or impression. What I mean is have you looked firsthand at material offered by actual Calvinists like this;The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (with Modern Features)

Basically, they read Scripture backward.

Ironically, they find that about those who oppose the teaching of scripture.

They think they believe because they are saved, but Scripture says we are saved because we believe. They get it backward.

Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost. When the Spirit gives a new heart, bringing a dead sinner from spiritual death to life, they do believe ,for sure Ezk 36:25-27, Jn chapter 3...Do you believe this also?

That does NOT mean they are not saved.

Okay, that is helpful!

Of course they believe in God's Triune nature, the blood of Christ, and the new birth, being filled and led with the Spirit, Christ is Lord of all and the only means of salvation.

This seems to be mainstream doesn't it?

But they deny that any person CAN be saved, and they get the order wrong.

Many people died before Jesus was on earth, and they never heard about Jesus or the cross. Do you believe they could be saved?

Let me say it again--Christianity and Calvinism are not identical.

When you look at the Confession of faith, let me know which part is not Christianity? The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (with Modern Features)

Good Bible-believing Calvinists still teach things that are not founded in Scripture and Scripture alone,

It would help me if you could give 3 or 4 examples of such things. Do you mean those who suggest that men have free will?

but they have misinterpreted and added to Scripture to support their errant belief system.

Do you mean like an unscriptural "altar call" where they close their eyes and play just as I am 14 times? Then if anyone walks to the front of the building, they pronounce that person saved?

Does not make them lost.

okay. thankfully salvation is of the Lord.

Likewise, Catholicism has done the same, but to a much greater degree. Baptists to a much lesser degree.

Okay, that seems fair.

Regarding Silverhair and Canady's discussion of how people are saved, I refer to
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I will have to look at that one.

Old Testament saints did not know of the Cross of Christ and how He would suffer and die and raise the third day. That was not clear to them at all.

Many of them did not understand the promises.

They had faith in God, as Silverhair pointed out, but now, AFTER the Cross, and after the Gospel has been made known, God now commands all to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6, Acts 4:12).

Yes, he does command all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

People are not received by God by believing in God somewhat ignorantly--now they must trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It makes sense that a person should understand what they are to believe.

I don't think I am making things clear,

Well you are clarifying things pretty well, and if we want to understand more, we ask questions. A keyboard is not as clear sometimes as a verbal conversation for sure. I think many understandings happen because of that.

but I am trying to say in the OT people believed the best they knew how, but since the Cross of Christ, men must believe on Him, and there's no other way.

Yes, you offered two good verses on that. It seems like the OT, believers who believed, embraced the promises.

And again, OT saints were not saved in the same sense saints are saved today; they were not born again, they were not Spirit filled and indwelt (as a general rule).

This is a bit confusing. David said this; Psalm 51-11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Saints today are born again and indwelt of the Spirit and spiritually united to Christ (1 Corinthians 6:17).

Yes, they are!

 

[Silverhair]

Canadyjd wrote:
"1 Corinthians is very clear. Since man did not come to know God through their own wisdom, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached (Jesus Christ and Him crucified) to save those who believe.

There is no salvation without the gospel. The ideology of “responding to the light you have” is a lie from the mouth of Satan that takes the focus off Jesus and puts it on the man.

Anyone that believes many are saved without hearing the gospel is thoroughly deceived and blinded by ignorance of God’s Word."

I agree with the above for today, since the Cross of Christ. In the OT, they did not know the Gospel of Christ. My understanding of "responding to the light you have" is that if a person DOES respond to that light, God gives that person more light, on and on, until He brings them to a place where the Gospel is presented to that person. Another thing:

Romans chapter 1 is the Light of Creation. Romans chapter 2 is the Light of Conscience. The Light of Creation and the Light of Conscience is enough to CONDEMN a person but neither is enough to SAVE a person. Again, if they seek to know more of the truth they have obtained from the Light of Creation and the Light of Conscience, God will see to it that someone somewhere will get to them with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He's a big God--He can do that, but yes, John 3:16, 14:6, Acts 2:21--that's the only way of salvation today. God deals with people in various manners and uses different situations to bring people to the knowledge that they need Christ, but yes, they must believe on Jesus Christ to be saved.

It wasn't like that in the Old Testament. OT saints were reserved in Paradise until such time as the Messiah came and fulfilled God's requirement of the perfect sacrifice to save those OT saints and take them to Heaven and thenceforth requiring all to believe on the Lord Jesus to be born again (saved--regenerated).

Those that have the gospel presented to them are responsible for how they respond to it. Where we differ is in what do we say about those that never have the chance to hear the gospel.

Luk 18:26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

God has provide various means by which man can know Him and either to trust in Him or reject what He has presented to them.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

I do not limit God in His sovereignty, His power or His love for His creation. I do not feel that we are in the position to tell God whom He can and cannot save.

Luk 18:27 But Jesus said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

If we take John 3:16-18 as the sole criterion for salvation, then all non-Christians, children who die young, and the mentally disabled will be automatically condemned to hell. I find that inconsistent with the NT's portrayal of God as a loving Father. In addition, it seems inconsistent with the Bible's portrayal of God as all-powerful and yet to believe He is somehow unable to save anyone He finds worthy.

 

[Silverhair]

Enoch was an exception to the rule, as was Elijah, and even John the Baptist. As they say, the exception proves the rule.

Enoch and Elijah's experience serve as prophetic examples of the future translation of the church to Heaven. I think it's safe to say Enoch can represent Gentile (non-Jewish) believers while Elijah represents saved Jews, as the church from the time of Paul and Peter has fulfilled the mystery of Jew and Gentile becoming one new man in Christ. The idea of God accepting Gentiles was horrible to Jews, yet that is what God did in Christ--Jew and Gentile are alike in being sinners and alike in being saved through the Lord Jesus Christ, one new man. In other words, Jews and Gentiles all came from Adam, and thus were born sinners, and when Jews or Gentiles believe on Christ, they are transferred from Adam into Christ (He is the Second and Last Adam). In Adam, all were born sinners. In Christ, all are born again as saints, no matter if they are Jew or Gentile, male or female, etc.

Back to your statement above, Enoch (and Elijah) were clearly exceptions. Their experience was not the common experience of humanity, nor even of a subset of humanity. In the case of John the Baptizer, he was filled with the Holy Spirit from Elizabeth's womb, but that was not the experience of Old Testament saints. John was chosen of God to be the forerunner for Christ and was made an exception, not the rule for OT saints.

It seems to me that you are reading into the text what is not there. What I see is that God, as we see in your examples, can save whom He chooses to save for what reasons He chooses.

I agree that Enoch and Elijah's experience serve as prophetic examples of the future translation of the church to Heaven.

But notice that neither heard the gospel message, they just believed God the same as all the OT saints did.

Where I see another error in your thinking is when you say "In Adam, all were born sinners." We do not see that in scripture. We see that we all die as a consequence of Adam's sin and that we do not inherit the sins of our parents.

Eze_18:4 Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

 

[Zaatar71]

Where I see another error in your thinking is when you say "In Adam, all were born sinners." We do not see that in scripture.

Christians do see that in scripture SH...right here Romans 3;23
YLT
for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --

We see that we all die as a consequence of Adam's sin and that we do not inherit the sins of our parents.

Eze_18:4 Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

This misunderstanding denies the biblical account of the fall.

 

[JesusFan]

Christians do see that in scripture SH...right here Romans 3;23
YLT
for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --


This misunderstanding denies the biblical account of the fall.

That passage has NOTHING to do with spiritual deadness/death, refers only to physical death of capital punishment for sinning

 

[Zaatar71]

That passage has NOTHING to do with spiritual deadness/death, refers only to physical death of capital punishment for sinning

Oh, you mean the passages SH took out of context, as he tried to pit those against clearly revealed verses?

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 0200 GMT / 10 PM EDT

 

[Silverhair]

for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God

So you think infants sin. How ?

This misunderstanding denies the biblical account of the fall.

This is the biblical account of the fall Z.

Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

This is what I posted
We see that we all die as a consequence of Adam's sin and that we do not inherit the sins of our parents.
Eze_18:4 Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

Care to show how what I posted denies the biblical account of the fall.

What you should have said is what I posted does not agree with the calvinists version of the fall.

 

[Silverhair]

Oh, you mean the passages SH took out of context, as he tried to pit those against clearly revealed verses?

Which clearly revealed passages would those be Z?

Now I would say this verse is quite clear. Why do you disagree?
Eze_18:4 Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

In Chapters 18 and 33 are contained some of the most thorough, carefully expressed, and absolutely clear discourses on the topic of the responsibility of the individual for his or her own sins found anywhere in the Bible.

Why do you deny this?

I know you have added to clear scripture {Gen 3:17-19}

 

[Zaatar71]

So you think infants sin. How ?

All conceived persons, sinned in Adam, at one point in time...The fall Rom 3:23 all sinned!

This is the biblical account of the fall Z.

Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

Yes, and here is the Holy Spirit's interpretation given to Paul Rom3:23 rom.5:12-21

This is what I posted
We see that we all die as a consequence of Adam's sin and that we do not inherit the sins of our parents.

Ezkiel is not speaking of the fall. That is a done deal, all sinned at one point in time, in the past...Ezk18 is saying if your father robs the bank, you are not going to jail for your father, he goes to jail for himself, get it?

Eze_18:4 Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

Yes, each person will give account of himself to God; Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Care to show how what I posted denies the biblical account of the fall.

I just have...

What you should have said is what I posted does not agree with the calvinists version of the fall.

I follow the mainstream Christian teaching of the events of the fall. All real Christians believe this!

 

[Silverhair]

All conceived persons, sinned in Adam, at one point in time...The fall Rom 3:23 all sinned!

Not what we see in scripture Z. When did infants sin?

Yes, and here is the Holy Spirit's interpretation given to Paul Rom3:23 rom.5:12-21

Yes all of us sin but we have to be able to know right from wrong, can infants do that Z?

Ezkiel is not speaking of the fall. That is a done deal, all sinned at one point in time, in the past...Ezk18 is saying if your father robs the bank, you are not going to jail for your father, he goes to jail for himself, get it?

What does it say Z? Each person is responsible for their own sin. I am not responsible for the sin of Adam but neither are you. It is just for errant view that teaches you that.

Yes, each person will give account of himself to God; Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

And again you prove my point Z. Each person is responsible for their own sins not those of Adam.

I just have...

No you gave me the calvinist version not the biblical version

I follow the mainstream Christian teaching of the events of the fall. All real Christians believe this!

Calvinism is not main stream Z.

 

[Zaatar71]

Not what we see in scripture Z. When did infants sin?

I am not sure if you are capable of understanding truth, but I will offer it for you and others. This is exactly what romans3:23 teaches.. observe;

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that "Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice. (Borrow Believer's Bible Commentary)

The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson).

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means "looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin."

This is exactly what scripture teaches. It teaches this and nothing else.

Yes all of us sin but we have to be able to know right from wrong, can infants do that Z?

They sinned and died in Adam. If they are saved it is because the last Adam had mercy on them.

What does it say Z? Each person is responsible for their own sin. I am not responsible for the sin of Adam but neither are you. It is just for errant view that teaches you that.

If deny Romans 3:23 , you deny the truth of scripture, and you cannot get the gospel right.

And again you prove my point Z. Each person is responsible for their own sins not those of Adam.

This only proves you are 100% wrong.

No you gave me the calvinist version not the biblical version

Your hatred for the doctrines of grace, causes you to foolishly deny truth. I have offered you 3 greek teachers who explain the truth to anyone who wants truth.

Calvinism is not main stream Z.

It is quite mainstream.

 

[Silverhair]

I am not sure if you are capable of understanding truth, but I will offer it for you and others. This is exactly what romans3:23 teaches.. observe;

Yes we all will be judged for our sin once we are capable of understanding what sin is. Are you going to say that infants are in hell for sins that they did not commit and for which they could not be forgiven as they could not trust in God

They sinned and died in Adam. If they are saved it is because the last Adam had mercy on them.

How do infants sin Z? We are judged for our own sins not someone else's.
The consequence of Adam's sin was that all will die, even those that have not sinned.

If deny Romans 3:23 , you deny the truth of scripture, and you cannot get the gospel right.

When have I denied Rom 3:23. We all sin but notice you still have not even made the attempt to deal with infants or the mentally handy capped.

This only proves you are 100% wrong.

Not according to the word of God.

Your hatred for the doctrines of grace, causes you to foolishly deny truth. I have offered you 3 greek teachers who explain the truth to anyone who wants truth.

Your calvinist DoG/TULIP are not biblical so I speak against them.

It is quite mainstream.

Only for calvinists or those that have not thought it through.

 

[Zaatar71]

Yes we all will be judged for our sin once we are capable of understanding what sin is. Are you going to say that infants are in hell for sins that they did not commit and for which they could not be forgiven as they could not trust in God

How do infants sin Z? We are judged for our own sins not someone else's.
The consequence of Adam's sin was that all will die, even those that have not sinned.


When have I denied Rom 3:23. We all sin but notice you still have not even made the attempt to deal with infants or the mentally handy capped.

Not according to the word of God.

Your calvinist DoG/TULIP are not biblical so I speak against them.

Only for calvinists or those that have not thought it through.

Here Silverhair demonstrates he lacks the ability to read with any level of comprehension/ This shows why he cannot understand or discuss these issues. Post 113 answered him in full/ he reads it, and cannot understand what he reads.

 

[Silverhair]

Here Silverhair demonstrates he lacks the ability to read with any level of comprehension/ This shows why he cannot understand or discuss these issues.

And again you attack the person rather that deal with the issue.

 

[Zaatar71]

And again you attack the person rather that deal with the issue.

I dealt with the issue fully in post 113...read it over and over until you can understand it. That is the biblical answer, there is no other. For you to deny it means you lack the ability to understand it, or worse, you see what it says, and are intentionally perverting truth.

 

[Silverhair]

I dealt with the issue fully in post 113...read it over and over until you can understand it. That is the biblical answer, there is no other. For you to deny it means you lack the ability to understand it, or worse, you see what it says, and are intentionally perverting truth.

Does not deal with the obvious problem which you still have not even acknowledged.

 

[Zaatar71]

Does not deal with the obvious problem which you still have not even acknowledged.

It is not possible to take you seriously after these posts. You lack total ability to comprehend, and have lost all credibility.
Good luck to you in the future, maybe truth will come to you at a future time.