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can One Hold to Arm Theology AND eternal Security also?
- Thread starter DaChaser1
- Start date
convicted1
Guest
Now, if one is the prototypical 5 point Arm, no way can they believe in eternal security. I lean towards the "Arm" theology, maybe three points(?), but I do believe that when God saves, He preserves.
seekingthetruth
New Member
Dachaser/Jesusfan?
This is the problem.
Most people, except you evidently, define who they are theologically by what the Bible tells them. They don't pick a camp or theology.
Most people who get saved do so because they want to be a Christian, not an Arm or Cal.
What is with all of these labels?
And why cant you understand that NOT every Christian is an Arm or a Cal?
John
This is the problem.
Most people, except you evidently, define who they are theologically by what the Bible tells them. They don't pick a camp or theology.
Most people who get saved do so because they want to be a Christian, not an Arm or Cal.
What is with all of these labels?
And why cant you understand that NOT every Christian is an Arm or a Cal?
John
psalms109:31
Active Member
Does a person who believed once and down the road turned away from God care about eternal security?
Why is it so hard to accept that they could be just one who believed in their head and not deep down in their soul and satan just snatched the seed from them or it wasn't seeded enough and they let trials and tribulations choke it out. That their going proved they were never one of us in the first place?
Why is it so hard to accept that they could be just one who believed in their head and not deep down in their soul and satan just snatched the seed from them or it wasn't seeded enough and they let trials and tribulations choke it out. That their going proved they were never one of us in the first place?
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Any initial claim to salvation does not guarantee the person making the claim has truly been saved. I don't believe the Bible encourages us to assume we are genuinely saved because we have shown signs initially of having received the knowledge of the truth. In Mark 4:16-17, we see the stony ground hearers "immediately received it with gladness", but later "immediately they are offended."
This is a type of hearer who initially receives the knowledge of the truth, but there is some kind of problem 'down below' which the Lord sees which prevents them from being saved, and probably nobody is aware of that fact, including the person making the profession, but the Lord.
We are told in 1 Cor. 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
Romans 11:19-22 "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
The saved will never become unsaved any more than the elect can become unelect, but the saved are also told not to take salvation for granted, because that is the mark of those who only think they are saved.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Luke 11:
46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.
1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
Romans 11:
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
This is not talking about Peter denial. It is talking about a complete disowning.
2 Timothy 2:
8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
Hebrews 4
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[Psalm 95:11; also in verse 5]
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[Gen. 2:2] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[Psalm 95:7,8]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Romans 11:
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
53 When Jesus went outside, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.
1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
Romans 11:
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.
This is not talking about Peter denial. It is talking about a complete disowning.
2 Timothy 2:
8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God’s word is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
Hebrews 4
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”[Psalm 95:11; also in verse 5]
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”[Gen. 2:2] 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[Psalm 95:7,8]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[Or labor] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Romans 11:
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
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Yes, of course they can.
Even when the five articles were composed and Arminians were united in the first four, the fifth demonstrated a disagreement on this issue. Many view God as electing based on foreknowledge (God knew and loved those who would actually be saved in the end). Those who “fall away,” in this view, were never actually saved. But this is not the common Calvinistic view of Arminianism today.
Even when the five articles were composed and Arminians were united in the first four, the fifth demonstrated a disagreement on this issue. Many view God as electing based on foreknowledge (God knew and loved those who would actually be saved in the end). Those who “fall away,” in this view, were never actually saved. But this is not the common Calvinistic view of Arminianism today.
convicted1
Guest
If someone truly holds to all five points of the Arm theology, then how they believe in security? Doesn't this belief alone, go against point #5?
It is God's will for Christians to grow after salvation and the growth begins at 'infantcy' by feeding on milk and later beginning to digest the deeper things of God. The Holy Spirit has given different members in the body to perform different functions, including teachers to teach. We learn from God by studying on our own but also from what we are given by others from God, thank God.
These discussions are helpful, in my opinion, in opening up the word of God and seeing how to rightly divide the scriptures so our understanding will improve, but there has to be some 'piecing together' of the scriptures when the scriptures are 'broken up' to be fed to the Lord's people. Isa. 28 speaks of "line upon line" and "here a little and there a little" when feeding growing babes in Christ.
psalms109:31
Active Member
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 3:
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[Greek he] gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
James 3
1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.
2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 3:
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[Greek he] gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
John 14:24
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
James 3
1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.
2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Eternal security is REALLY what predestination is all about. God has predetermined to conform and adopt whosoever believes in Him. He seals us with the promised HS when we come to faith and we can rest assured he will save us because He has predestined to save everyone who has faith IN CHRIST.
convicted1
Guest
No. Many view God’s election as being based on man’s will before creation. When one is saved, that person is regenerated, or born again from above. You can’t undo born.
Article 1 states that God chose, from before the foundation of the world, to save those who, through the grace of the Holy Spirit, shall believe on his Son and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith. Article 4 states that the grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good. While one may resist this grace (and therefore were not elect), once actually regenerated they are new beings. Ones who would “fall away” were simply not saved, they did not persevere.
Another view is that salvation is a process which is not realized until the end. It is improper, according to this position, to consider yourself “saved” while there is still a possibility of not being saved.
Of course, this is not the only way to view Arminianism. But there can be many forms of the system without necessarily contradicting one of the articles.
It is not as concise a theological system as is Calvinism (probably because the five points were an answer to the articles). You cannot take out any of the five points of Calvinism and have a logical system. The exception would be “limited atonement,” but that depends on the definition of atonement. You would have to at a minimum understand atonement as “limited” or “definite redemption."
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I totally agree. Good post!
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Totally agree, as I imagine most here do.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Doer of the word = godliness = genuine saving faith. This is the repeated message on almost every page of Scripture. Let us promulgate it as Christ and the apostles did!
Because of myopia which developed due to systematic theology. They need to wrap things up in a nice neat liitle package or they cannot deal with the issues. Of course one needs to ignore scripture to fall into a camp.
Alive in Christ
New Member
I completly reject calvinism, so I guess that means I am an arminion.
The sriptures forcefully proclaim our complete eternal security. Those who have recieved the new birth could not sin themselves out of their eternal standing even if they tried.
The sriptures forcefully proclaim our complete eternal security. Those who have recieved the new birth could not sin themselves out of their eternal standing even if they tried.
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