Can predestination and free will both exist?

[bound]

I agree. We all have our views and will lean one way or another. However, ignorance is never the right answer. If you view the "other side" as error, this will only cause you to get into the Word more and find the truth. We should never run from error, but stand against it. What we do here, should make each of us stronger no matter what side you are on.

Remember, most theology systems are based on what they saw as error by another. The only reason we have the 5 points of either side is that the other side saw error in teaching. This can be found in each age of the church as new theology was writtten.

Yes, I would have to agree with you Jarthur001. My problem is that Classic Arminianism is so Biblical that there really isn't 'all that' that is at odds with moderate Calvinism. Arminius didn't break from Calvin's Corpus, he merely criticized the distortions which came later in 'hyper-Calvinism'. Far too many, self-proclaimed, Free-willers and Arminians today are courting semi-pelagianism or all-out Pelagianism to be recognized as professors of true authentic Arminianism. Honestly, it's a real shame.

When I enter into the debate, I please neither side on this divisive polemic.

 

[skypair]

The 3rd Article of the Remonstrance cites:

That man could not obtain saving faith of himself of by the strength of his own free will, but stood in need of God's grace through Christ to be renewed in thought and will (John xv.5).

Rom 5:1-2 says otherwise. Rom 5:1-2 says that we cannot even have "God's grace wherein we stand" until we have first "believe on Him that raised up Jesus ... and was raised again for our JUSTIFICATION." Rom 4:24-25.

The "grace" that the remonstrance speaks of (being "renewed in thought and will") comes upon condition of our justification -- or as Rom 5:1 says, "we have access by faith into this grace..." FAITH precedes "RENEWAL" -- "REGENERATION." Not the other way around, friend.

And look again at Rom 5:1 -- "access to grace" is NOT by faith in or of the Holy Spirit (nor by "election" of God) but by OUR faith in Christ "By whom we have access by faith into this grace..."

[Deleted Statement Claiming others on the Baptist board were preaching a false gospel--this goes over the line based on the BBS rules]-- one where God chooses you and you acquiesce to acknowledge His word which is given "life" by Calvinism. The Mormons, an elder of whom I interviewed in Salt Lake City, do something similar. They say "We believe in the Book of Mormon and the Bible as interpretted by Mormonism and its elders."

Make no mistake. Read Acts 2:38-40 (THE "what shall we do" to be saved) and you will see the true gospel and that anyone who will 1) repent, 2) be baptized, 3) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (in that order) will be saved --- "for the promise is unto you and your children and all that are afar off... And with many other words did he testify ... SAVE YOURSELVES..."

skypair

 

[bound]

Basically, y'all are preaching a false gospel -- one where God chooses you and you acquiesce to acknowledge His word which is given "life" by Calvinism. The Mormons, an elder of whom I interviewed in Salt Lake City, do something similar. They say "We believe in the Book of Mormon and the Bible as interpretted by Mormonism and its elders."

Brother,

I don't mind you having your own views on this matter but I would ask that you not slander those who disagree with you as teaching a 'false gospel'. That is very insulting and is not something you can substantiate with what limited evidence is available on this forum.

Make no mistake. Read Acts 2:38-40 (THE "what shall we do" to be saved) and you will see the true gospel and that anyone who will 1) repent, 2) be baptized, 3) receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (in that order) will be saved --- "for the promise is unto you and your children and all that are afar off... And with many other words did he testify ... SAVE YOURSELVES..."

It is always risky to establish one's doctrine with limited references of the whole of Biblical Testimony.

One of the first keys to Biblical Hermeneutics is always seek to a consensual teaching of the Scriptural text. In other words, don't assert something that would contradict other normative interpretations of the Biblical Testimony.

For example, your assertion here contradicts a normative interpretation of the conversion of Cornelius in Acts 10.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? - Acts 10:44-47

Notice the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized.

Regeneration pre-Baptism.

 

[reformedbeliever]

All mankind has the ability for faith in Christ

I have to disagree Allan. We are involved in a company that places exchange students in people's homes. I have exchange students who attend our church regularly. They are of a manifold of beliefs and religions. I know of more than one exchange student, who is genuinely seeking truth about God. They come from families who are genuinely seeking truth. They have loved ones who were seeking truth, who have passed from this life. They never got a chance to hear about Jesus. What about them?

 

[MB]

Hi Rpniman.
I believe I understand your confusion. Actually they both exist Freewill isn't what a lot of people think it is. Freewill is our ability to sin and rebel against God.
James said,
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

What is pride if it isn't sin? and isn't it pride that keeps us from being humble?. What I'm saying is that freewill is our God given right to rebel against God. The Jews for the most part have been doing just that for 2000 years. We have the freewill to choose to rebel against God. With out rebellion and pride we have humility. Many say the natural man cannot hear, and must be regenerated in order to be enabled but ,this is not biblical. There is not one verse that says man lost his ability to hear the gospel. They use verses where Christ asked a Pharisee why he didn't hear him which doesn't prove men can't hear. It just shows man doesn't listen because of his own pride and rebellion.
The fact that men don't choose God is true even God says that He choses us Jn 15:16
In Christ we have been chosen.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Being chosen in Him doesn't gaurantee our Salvation but only makes it availible We are predestined.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

His will is that all men come to Him and be saved but this Grace is only placed on the humbled. Not the prideful. We have to come to Him with the trust of a little child.
Paul wrote this below to the Jews because of their rebellion and pride.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We have to submit to the righteousness of God in humility. You see we wear the righteousness of Christ it covers our sins. and it is His righteous faith that ultimately saves us.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Predestination is not defined in Greek as unalterable as in the English dictionary. Our destiny depends on our willingness to listen to the word of God. If we believe then we may be saved by the faith of Christ.
MB

 

[Amy.G]

Just a couple of questions.

Being chosen in Him doesn't gaurantee our Salvation but only makes it availible We are predestined.

Huh?

His will is that all men come to Him and be saved but this Grace is only placed on the humbled. Not the prideful. We have to come to Him with the trust of a little child.

How does the prideful person become humble?
The unsaved person has no desire for God and is self-centered, not in need of God in his mind. How does he overcome this?

 

[Allan]

I have to disagree Allan. We are involved in a company that places exchange students in people's homes. I have exchange students who attend our church regularly. They are of a manifold of beliefs and religions. I know of more than one exchange student, who is genuinely seeking truth about God. They come from families who are genuinely seeking truth. They have loved ones who were seeking truth, who have passed from this life. They never got a chance to hear about Jesus. What about them?

Genuinely seeking truth, does not mean they would believe the truth if it contradicted what they were looking for, or the some basic paramiters that would estalbish what they wanted to hear. (ie. Jews of Christ's time) They COULD have believed but they did not because the Jesus presented them was not the truth they most wanted to receive.

IF they were 'genuinely' seeking truth do you believe God would forsake them when He knew they would truly recieve Him and His truth?

 

[russell55]

Deleted post....change my mind.

 

[Allan]

How does the prideful person become humble?
The unsaved person has no desire for God and is self-centered, not in need of God in his mind. How does he overcome this?

When God reveals truth to man Amy.

Your contention that "Man has no disire' is based on the presumption that man has no ability to choose God". However it is one presumption that is not based on any solid scriptural support but upon logic, and is a presupposition of what the phrase 'dead in sin' is supposed to mean. I agree that it is scriptural that Man will not seek after God (if left to himself), and that Man can not do any good works of or for meritorious or salvic means. Scripture also states that man can not know any spiritual truth (if left to himself).

The only way man has 'NO' ability to choose God, is if God never revealed ANY truth to man at all but left him alone in his sin, thereby giving man no choice and if there is no choice there is no ability to choose anything. That is the one way man has NO ability to choose, much less choose God.

However, we know that this is not what God has done. As a matter of fact we see scripture speaking directly to the contrary of your statement in such example passages as:
John 1:7-9, Prov 1:20-33, Rom 1:18-31, and 2 Thes 2:10-12. Or the parables like Larzarus and the Rich man, Wedding feast and also Jesus speaking to the Rich young Ruler.

James and I had a good discussion of this in posts 45-48, and in post 48 I deal with your contention a little more specifically.
The above is taken and slightly modified from post 48.

 

[TCGreek]

"Knowledge of good and evil" coupled with the ability to choose either one.

skypair

1. While the unregenerate often does good, it is not the good that Paul says the unregenerate is incapable of doing (Matt 7:11; Rom 3:12).

2. So there must be two categories of good: 1. this is where both the unregenerate and regenerate are able to do; but 2. only the regenerate can accomplish this good.

3. The good the unregenerate accomplishes is expressed in places like Matt 7:15.

4. But the good the regenerate does is seen in Eph 2:10, the "good works"---"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

5. This is what I see in Scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

When God reveals truth to man Amy.

Your 'unsaved person has no desire' is true only when that man is left to himself and God leaves him there. IOW - God does not reveal anything to him at all.

Yet we KNOW from scripture God does not do this. But we also know from scripture that there does come a time when God stops as well.

James and I had a good discussion of this in posts 45-48, and in post 48 I deal with your contention a little more specifically.

If God reveals Himself to everyone, why do some come before Him humbly and others remain prideful? What makes the difference? Some stay prideful. Why?

 

[Allan]

If God reveals Himself to everyone, why do some come before Him humbly and others remain prideful? What makes the difference? Some stay prideful. Why?

Every man has the capsity of pride and humilty, everyone - both saved and unsaved.
What made the difference for you to obey Christ once you WERE ALREADY a Christian and the times you were disobedient.

It is the same reasoning.

 

[webdog]

If God reveals Himself to everyone, why do some come before Him humbly and others remain prideful? What makes the difference? Some stay prideful. Why?

There is no way to know this.

Scripture also states the lost exchanged the truth for a lie...they had the truth.

 

[Allan]

If God reveals Himself to everyone, why do some come before Him humbly and others remain prideful? What makes the difference? Some stay prideful. Why?

I changed my post just before you posted this
Just letting you know so you can go back and read it.

 

[Amy.G]

What made the difference for you to obey Christ once you WERE ALREADY a Christian and the times you were disobedient.

It is the same reasoning.

It is the Holy Spirit in me that causes me to be obedient. It is my sinful nature that causes me to be disobedient.

Before I was saved, I was always disobedient, always following my nature/flesh.

 

[skypair]

I don't mind you having your own views on this matter but I would ask that you not slander those who disagree with you as teaching a 'false gospel'. That is very insulting and is not something you can substantiate with what limited evidence is available on this forum.

Let me ask you --- if someone told you that they were "hand-picked" by God to be saved and proclaim His ONLY truth, what would be your response??

It is always risky to establish one's doctrine with limited references of the whole of Biblical Testimony.

If you have been reading my posts for the past 3 years, they are NOT "limited references." I merely testify to you of the one reference that should make it abundantly clear that God does not operate in the manner that you witness to.

One of the first keys to Biblical Hermeneutics is always seek to a consensual teaching of the Scriptural text. In other words, don't assert something that would contradict other normative interpretations of the Biblical Testimony.

If by "normative" you mean "Calvinist," I beg to disagree. Calvinism would be like someone coming our of Aristotle's "cave" (Catholicism) and seeing light for the first time --- one hardly knows how to grasp the totality of the truth! Calvinism was a good INTERIM reaction. It by no means established what scripture really says!

For example, your assertion here contradicts a normative interpretation of the conversion of Cornelius in Acts 10.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? - Acts 10:44-47

Let's "break it down" before jumping to conclusions, shall we? Peter spake the words -- the Holy Ghost fell on those who heard the words. Does that say that the Holy Ghost "indwelled," regenerated, rebirthed, etc. them? Not unless you read Calvinism into it.

Then, of course, you leave out that Cornelius "already knew" (10:37) of "peace by Jesus: (He is Lord of all)..." And those with Peter were astonished that on Cornelius and his house, Gentiles, the Holy Ghost had already been poured out.

Why had the Spirit been poured out? Because they repented and beleived (Acts 2:38). Then Peter says, "Be baptized!"

My friend -- you are taking an account of salvation and making it out to be the gospel!! This is the EXACT error that Calvinism makes!! Rather than take the gospel and proclaim it, they take SYNOPSES of salvation experiences and make them out to be the gospel. It would be like me telling you about an auto accident with me as a witness instead of taking the word of the person actually involved. You still have no "first hand" knowledge of how it happened, do you?

Notice the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized.

Regeneration pre-Baptism.

I DID notice!! PRE-Baptism, as you call it, is NOT regeneration!! All it is is HEARING the word -- the GENERAL calling! Do we ever hear how many of THEM were saved? No. They were WITNESSES but it is never established that they themselves were converted.

Bound -- I appreciate your reactions. But notice the GOSPEL -- Acts 10:35-43, especially 43 -- BELIEVE, RECEIVE!!! Stop making this about "Oh, these are the 'chosen ones' who are regenerated so that only they come to faith." That is nowhere in this account.

skypair

 

[skypair]

They never got a chance to hear about Jesus. What about them?

You are denying Rom 1:19-20. They may not have heard about Jesus but the sure as .... heard about God! What did they do about that? What did GOD do about their "seeking?"

You know -- a lot of people say that God isn't revealing Himself to ALL. BUNK! It may seem harder for us who have heard the gospel plain and clear but those who are in "darkness" are more sensitive to "light" than us, for sure!

skypair

 

[skypair]

If God reveals Himself to everyone, why do some come before Him humbly and others remain prideful? What makes the difference? Some stay prideful. Why?

I think you are wrong, Amy. I feel the same "struggles" that you do but to say someone comes "pridefully" to Christ is presumptuous, don't you think? How does someone come to Christ and not abandon self? Doesn't "coming" (and that is a "loaded" word) to Christ mean that we aren't able to save ourselves?

You're getting this Calvinist idea of "pride" confused with "real life." They are SO mindful of ANYONE who would claim to be saved apart from Calvinism. Well, are you "smarter?" are you "better?" does God speak to you and not to me? NO!

Luther said that the "requirement" for salvation was humility. Duh! That's a "condition" of salvation! As in TULIP? Who do you have to be "humble" before? Luther? Reform dogma (systematic theology)? Just exactly who do you have to please??

Have a nice day.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

You are denying Rom 1:19-20. They may not have heard about Jesus but the sure as .... heard about God! What did they do about that? What did GOD do about their "seeking?"

You know -- a lot of people say that God isn't revealing Himself to ALL. BUNK! It may seem harder for us who have heard the gospel plain and clear but those who are in "darkness" are more sensitive to "light" than us, for sure!

skypair

You don't know what you are talking about. Are you ok sky? I never said God didn't reveal Himself to everyone. I don't deny any of Scripture. You do.
What exactly are you trying to say sky?

 

[Amy.G]

I think you are wrong, Amy. I feel the same "struggles" that you do but to say someone comes "pridefully" to Christ is presumptuous, don't you think? How does someone come to Christ and not abandon self? Doesn't "coming" (and that is a "loaded" word) to Christ mean that we aren't able to save ourselves?

You're getting this Calvinist idea of "pride" confused with "real life." They are SO mindful of ANYONE who would claim to be saved apart from Calvinism. Well, are you "smarter?" are you "better?" does God speak to you and not to me? NO!

Luther said that the "requirement" for salvation was humility. Duh! That's a "condition" of salvation! As in TULIP? Who do you have to be "humble" before? Luther? Reform dogma (systematic theology)? Just exactly who do you have to please??

Have a nice day.

skypair

You have misunderstood me. I said people come to Christ in humility, but some remain prideful (they don't come to Christ). I was responding to another poster who was saying that the humble come to Christ. I was just asking how one overcomes being prideful.

Hope that clears it up.