Can someone WANT to be saved but not be?

[Winman]

Because Winman and others have said they cannot understand my post
I am going to move something to this thread to try to clarify my post.

If this is not allowed someone can delete.

From the Calvinism and marriage thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dh1948 View Post
I look at it this way....

If Dr. Graham has 5,000 people profess to be saved at one of his crusades and you have 50 profess to be saved in your church over the period of a year.

Now, suppose we say that only 30% of those in Dr. Graham's crusade were really saved. That would be 1500 people who were genuinely saved.

I would guess your percentage of genuine professions would be about the same: 30%. If so, that means you had 15 people genuinely saved.

Why question the number of people who professed Christ at a Graham crusade when you would probably be very happy to report that you had 50 saved at your church over a year's span...without a disclaimer!
So if the Father did not give them to the Son I guess they must have come down that aisle by faith other than real faith.

John17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Therefore, just what would be, real faith?


With permission from dh1948 and all else I could move this to the thread," Can someone WANT to be saved but not be?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by gb93433 View Post
Hebrews 11:1. Hebrews 11:6 tells how we can please God.

Is Heb 11:1 / 6 not that what the 5000 to 50 did in the previous post of which we are hypothetically assigning 30% as being genuine?

If the faith of Hebrews 11 is our faith, something we are generating, what determines whether it is genuine or not? Is it genuine only if we can quit sinning all together, or most of the time, or some of the time, every now and then?

I should have moved it for it may help Winman and others understand my posts in that thread.
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My point: Per the OP of this thread. These people want to be saved, it is their desire. Yet because of their life we question whether their faith is genuine or not.

By grace through the faith. Eph 2:8 I believe to be the same faith of Hebrews 11.

However whose faith? The faith of the one named? What about all who passed through the sea? Did they, all, have that kind of faith? Or did they all pass through the sea because of the faith, to come? The faith of Jesus Christ.

Back to the post from the other thread. If it was 30 % of the 5000 or whatever actually saved, then it was through election of God the 30% would have been called by God, given the Holy Spirit, through the faith of Jesus Christ, who had also received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father Acts 2:33 after the resurrection from the dead, Verse 32 which was the Grace of God.

With this thought in mind re-read my post and agree, disagree, or ask questions. It is a discussion board. with all my heart.

Thank you Percho, this is much easier to understand.

First, I don't think we should judge folks simply because they don't conform to what we think a true Christian should act like. If a person says they have believed in Jesus as their Saviour, I tend to take them at their word. No one would have believed Samson was a believer looking at his actions, yet he is included among those of strong faith recorded in Hebrews 11. Another example is Lot, no one would believe him saved by looking at his life, yet we know he was. No one would have believed David was a believer when he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah killed in battle. We also know there are tares among the wheat, so just because a person comes to church every week does not mean they are necessarily saved, and because another person does not come to church does not prove they are not saved. We have to be careful judging others.

I believe our faith is our own, but we could not have faith without God's word. You cannot believe what you do not know or have not heard. This is what Paul says in Romans 10.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Note the word "how", Paul is directly addressing ABILITY here. He is asking "how" can a person believe. Note that he asks how is it possible to believe in someone of whom we have not heard. He does not mention supernatural regeneration at all. If supernatural regeneration is required to believe, then why didn't Paul mention it here where he is directly asking how faith comes?

No, Paul implies that a person believes simply by hearing of Jesus, and that it is impossible to believe in Jesus if we have never heard of him. So, God's word reveals Jesus to us that we might believe in him, God's word ENABLES us to believe in Jesus, it provides the knowledge we naturally lack. No man is born knowing of Jesus, we can only know this through the word of God and preachers sent out to preach the word of God.

And ask yourself, how did you come to believe in Jesus? Were you walking along one day and were suddenly struck with knowledge of Jesus? Or did you hear of Jesus from a preacher? I know how I believed, I heard the preaching of the gospel in church from the word of God.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Again, the word "might" addresses ABILITY. Does this verse say we must be supernaturally regenerated to believe? No, it says John has recorded the book of John so that we might believe. The word of God enlightens us and teaches us about Jesus so that we might believe in him.

But God still gets all the credit. The word of God is a supernatural work. Holy men of God were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the scriptures. Without this supernatural gift of the scriptures, we could not possibly know or believe in Jesus. So if we believe, it is because God taught us. The student is never to vaunt himself above his master, his teacher.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Does this verse say all who are supernaturally regenerated by God shall come to Jesus? No! It says all who have heard (our duty) and learned (our duty) have been taught (God's part) by the Father. God provides the revelation and knowledge that enables us to believe, but we must willingly hear and learn from God.

It is no different than school, the teacher and our books provide the knowledge that enables us to learn, but the student must willingly hear and study to learn. All of the students are provided the same access to knowledge, but every student learns as he is willing and applies himself. Some students apply themselves and make good grades, others goof off in class and never learn. Faith is the same.

I believe another verse that supports faith as being our own ability is Luke 17:5. I will explain that in another post, this has gone a bit long.

 

[Winman]

More scripture that I believe supports that faith is our own is Luke 17.

Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Here the disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith. Seems like a pretty reasonable request doesn't it? And if our faith is given to us by God it is a reasonable request.

But look how Jesus answered, he said "If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say to this sycamine tree, Be plucked up by the root, and be planted in the sea, and it should obey you.".

Jesus turned it around on the disciples. He was in effect saying, "The fault is not mine fellas, it is yours. You should already have faith.". And it is true, they should have had faith. Afterall, they had seen Jesus heal hundreds of sick people and perform many miracles, they had heard his teachings. They had no excuse for their lack of faith.

But then notice verses 7 through 10. What do these verses have to do with increasing faith? I remember the first time I read this passage, I could not understand how verses 7-10 related to verses 5-6, but I knew they did, because verse 7 starts with the word "But" connecting it to the preceding verses.

These verses actually explain how we obtain the faith the disciples asked for, and explains how our attitude should be toward our own faith.

We obtain faith by listening to and obeying God's word, by doing his work. If you have faith and ask for God's blessings, your prayers will be answered and your faith will increase.

But we are never to vaunt ourselves. If we obtain this faith that allows us to tell a sycamore tree to be plucked up and cast in the ocean, that does not make us special, or better than others. We are simply doing our duty and should always regard ourselves as "unprofitable" servants.

So, we obtain faith by believing God's word, but we should never boast ourselves.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

If we have faith, it is because God has enabled us. We are not to boast ourselves, but fear.