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Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?
- Thread starter Tom Butler
- Start date
" No chance at salvation ". Webdog , you will have to let go of your worldly ideas such as chance . Many nations have not had the Word of God in script or by preaching/teaching . God had long before decided who would hear the gospel and of those who would be saved . God calls the shots . But you don't care for that fact . It is a comfort to me . I'm glad He is in-charge of everything and everyone . He is just and yet is merciful . If you do not like the God of Scripture that is sad . All of humanity deserve , not a chance or opportunity -- but condemnation . That would really be ultimately fair or just . But thankfully God has decided to be merciful to some . Be grateful . He is no monster . Some ideas divorced from Scripture are monstrous though .Don't lower God to the wee standards of worms .
Brother Bob
New Member
Tom Butler:
Your OP suggests non-Calvinists becoming the elect of which the Calvinist say they are the only ones of the elect when if God chooses you out of the world you become the elect also. He elected to choose you out of the world because you "believed".
Your OP suggests non-Calvinists becoming the elect of which the Calvinist say they are the only ones of the elect when if God chooses you out of the world you become the elect also. He elected to choose you out of the world because you "believed".
According to your own human wisdom.
Romans 9:14-21 -
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Brother Bob, my only problem with your post is your comment, "the Calvinist say they are the only ones of the elect." I believe that comment perpetuates some misconceptions. As a Calvinist, I do not believe I am part of some exclusive club that only Calvinist's are allowed to join. Either we are believers in Christ or we are not. All believers are elect, although not all believers are Calvinist's. I want to debunk the erroneous belief that only Calvinist's are elect.
Brother Bob
New Member
Thanks doulous;
epistemaniac
New Member
not at all... be careful with your words....
Ecc 5:2 esv Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven and you are on earth. Therefore let your words be few.
God is in heaven, He does as He pleases and He doesn't need to seek permission from anyone to do it...
Psa 135:6 esv Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.
Psa 11:4-5 esv The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test, the children of man.
(5) The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
2Ch 20:5-6 esv And Jehoshaphat stood in the assembly of Judah and Jerusalem, in the house of the Lord, before the new court,
(6) and said, O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you.
Dan 4:35 esv all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, What have you done?
blessings,
Ken
Brother Bob
New Member
He also:
John, chapter 3
"16": For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John, chapter 3
"16": For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 12:32 As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself."
Rom 1:18 For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth,
Rom 1:19 since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.
Brother Bob
New Member
Also;
Mark, chapter 16
"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark, chapter 16
"15": And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
You are assuming that conviction always leads to repentance. It doesn't. In fact, unless God gives man a new nature, all conviction generally does is make an unregenerate person work harder to invent excuses for how he is and what he's doing. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not assuming anything. Conviction doesn't always lead to salvation. Conviction is the "drawing" from John 12:32, the work of the Holy Spirit on the lost person's heart.
Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.
Conviction is simply revealing man's sinful state to man. If that man is regenerated, this information will (in part) lead to a plea for mercy. God will always grant that mercy.
If the man is unregenerate, this information will, at best, do nothing. At worst, it will harden his heart against God.
The point is that there is no such thing as a case where a man is convicted to the point where he realizes he needs God's mercy, and then God denies it. It doesn't work that way.
If that man is "regenerated", i.e. born again, saved, he has already responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
If the unregenerate are "dead" under calvinistic definition of dead, the man will be able to do nothing, include harden their own heart, and the "god of this world" who "blinds" the "dead" is working in vain.
Correct. God won't deny it, but man will turn his back on it, and the "god of this world" would have done his job.
Sigh. I don't know why I bother, but...
Fortunately, the truth (Calvinism) is that God is sovereign over the salvation of men, not man or satan.
Straw man. You are misrepresenting Calvinism in order to make it look silly. Either learn what Calvinism really teaches or, if you already know, stop being so disingenuous.
Huh? Man asks for mercy, God gives it, and then man turns his back on it? What conversation are you having, and with whom? It certainly isn't a response to what I said.
And then satan wins and God loses. Whew, you've got some weird wiggy mojo theology going there.
Fortunately, the truth (Calvinism) is that God is sovereign over the salvation of men, not man or satan.
Not quite, two can play the same game. If man cannot respond to God because he is "dead" (this IS what calvinism teaches), he does not need his heart hardened either because he is STILL "dead". BTW, calvinism doesn't need me to make it look silly.
"win" and "lose" what?
If man is "dead" (unable to respond to God ... this is what keeps getting stuffed down my throat by calvinists), then "the god of this world" (satan in wiggy mojo theology terms) does not need to "blind" a "dead man".
Brother Bob
New Member
Will someone please tell me what does Calvinists say "regenerate" mean? I am getting different signals on here.
Regeneration is the spiritual change wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith, and live in accordance with His Will (Matt. 19:28; John 3:3,5,7; Titus 3:5). It is an inner re-creating of fallen human nature by the gracious sovereign action of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-8). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4). It extends to the whole nature of man, altering his governing disposition, illuminating his mind, freeing his will, and renewing his nature.
It is what I consider being "Born Again."
Calvibaptist
New Member
Ditto everything Douglas just said. In addition to that, regeneration, according to Calvinism (and the Bible), is a change made in man's nature PRIOR to him exercising faith. It is the change from death to life in the elect through the Word by the Spirit that gives man the inclination and desire to respond in faith. The faith that brings justification is a result of regeneration.
Brother Bob
New Member
Well I was hoping we were closer together but I guess not for I believe its after you have heard the word of truth then after you have "believed" then are you sealed with the Holy Spirit. If you will change that "regeneration to "after you have believed" then I can agree with you.