Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Is there a biblical case for conviction of the non-elect, and against it?

I think there is biblical warrant for saying the Holy Spirit convicts the world (in this case, the unbelieving world) from John 16.

John 16:8-11 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Also, I believe that conviction is built into man via the conscience God has given him.

Romans 2:14-16 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Obviously, conviction comes from the Law, but I would place that back in the category of the conviction of the Holy Spirit (using the Law).

 

[J.D.]

Faith along said "I consider my position to be at least as close to what John Calvin believed, since modern Calvinism, from the time of the Synod of Dort in 1618 (in which Reformed theologians completely rejected Arminianism and persecuted them until the late 18th century), has taken a much more harsh and extreme view of free will than either Calvin or Luther took."

I think you should do some more studying on Calvin and Luther's personal theologies. Luther was probably the MOST anti-free-willer EVER. Check out his seminal work "Bondage of the Will". "Harsh" and "extreme" does not accuratly describe the Dortd'ers; "strong" would be better.

 

[GLC]

It seems to me that the issue of conviction as to those who don't believe (the non-elect) is similar to the "call" for those same folks. We distinguish the general call from the effectual call. Possibly there is a general conviction and an effectual conviction. Many all called but few are chosen. However, Romans 8 says those he called he justified. Is there a parallel as to calling & conviction?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by GLC:
It seems to me that the issue of conviction as to those who don't believe (the non-elect) is similar to the "call" for those same folks. We distinguish the general call from the effectual call. Possibly there is a general conviction and an effectual conviction. Many all called but few are chosen. However, Romans 8 says those he called he justified. Is there a parallel as to calling & conviction?

Scriptures says God isn't willing for any to perish, and the call is made to many but only a few are chosen,

"IF" God's call isn't as "effectual" to the many who are not chosen doesn't that contradict the stated will of God for none to perish???

An "IN-effectual call" would violate God's stated will.

All the following statements about God/Jesus misson to the earth are "TRUE",


1. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world,

2. Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (no respect of sinners)

3. Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;

4. but that the world through him might be saved.

5. Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

6. even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

7. 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,

7. but also for the sins of the whole world.

8. 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

9. 2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10. Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

11. Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;

"IF" all the above are the "Will of God", and God's sovereign will is "enforced", then why isn't the whole world saved??

And if salvation is determined whole by God's election, (personal faith not required) wouldn't that make all the above statements about God/Jesus mission "slightly less" than 100% "TRUTH"???

The verses say, provisions were made for all to be saved since all sinned, and God's love was manifested toward "SINNERS" without respect of the fact they were still sinnners.

And to have respect of persons is a "SIN".

Predestination/destruction of a person's soul strictly through/by the "Will of God", clearly isn't taught in the above scriptures,

But that God made a way for every man, and it's only though/by our "FAITH" in him to keep his word, that he "WILL" save.

 

[Mel Miller]

Frenchy,

What Scripture states that God has "elected
anyone to damnation"?

You wrote:

"God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21)".

You overlooked Rom.9:22 where it is not said
that "God fitted the vessels of wrath to
destruction". Men "treasure up wrath unto themselves" according to Rom.2:5.

This bears on the question of whether unelected men are being convicted. They reject what even the truth of Creation reveals and therefore it convicts men about their incorrigible hearts.
The very act of rebellion shows they know they
are guilty of rejecting the truth.

God's grace alone draws men to Himself. Those
who believe will not be rejected; for they are
chosen by God's sovereignty.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[grahame]

(John 8:7-9)The woman taken in adultery:

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last

Does this mean they were all predestined to be saved? Your guess is as good as mine. But I have seen people under great conviction of sin, but have never to my knowledge come to Christ.
Someone once said (can't remember who) "Predestination and the free will of man are like two parallel lines that meet in eternity". I suppose it is just another one of those sayings which is really admitting that we don't know. I know that God has ordained some to be saved and that He has also ordained the means for that salvation. Just why the Holy Spirit takes a person so far and no further I think remains a mystery. Just look at the account of God working in the heart of pharaoh and the conviction that is seen in the hearts of Esau and Judas. It is obvious that God works in the hearts of some which lead to salvation. But He also seems to work in the hearts of others to a greater or lesser degree which does not lead to salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

Of course the non-elect can come under conviction, who else can? If you were pre-chosen then why the conviction?
If you have chosen that "good part" which shall never be taken away, which would include believing that Jesus is the Christ, repenting of your sins and being "born again, not of a corruptable seed but of an incorruptable" then you are a part of the "elect", for He has chosen you out of the world.

 

[epistemaniac]

I am a five pointer, and I see no reason to suppose that the ungody cannot come under some type of conviction...just not the kind of conviction that leads to salvation....

2Co 7:10 esv For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death."

blessings,
Ken

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Of course the non-elect can come under conviction, who else can? If you were pre-chosen then why the conviction?
If you have chosen that "good part" which shall never be taken away, which would include believing that Jesus is the Christ, repenting of your sins and being "born again, not of a corruptable seed but of an incorruptable" then you are a part of the "elect", for He has chosen you out of the world.

Joh 12:32 As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself."

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Folks, so far I have not had an answer to my OP. This is not a debate over Calvinism. This is a straightforward question. Can a non-elect person come under conviction by the Holy Spirit?

Tom B.

The answer is no. Christ came for His own, and only for His own. His blood was shed for His own, and only for His own. The Holy Spirit comes to reprove the world of sin, and this world is the world of the elect.

The non-elect person has a consciousness of right and wrong, and his conscience may oftentimes weigh heavily on him, but he lacks the conviction of the Holy Spirit to change his mind and attitude about sin.

He calls sin a 'mistake', a 'lack of judgment', an 'immoral' act, but, he will never call it outright sin, or refer to himself as sinner, or be convinced that he is a sinner.

He may have a desire to 'reform', but not 'repent'. He may even acknowledge he is hellbound, and care nothing for it, or think he will be able to avoid that trajectory by altering his course himself. </font>[/QUOTE]Your views on the non elect are all assumptions. My wife was witnessing to my mother in law on the phone, and laid out the Gospel right there for her. After my wife asked her if she wanted to give her life to Christ, there was a silent pause that lasted a couple of minutes. She sadly said that there were some things she needed to get right in her life first (she's a die hard catholic).

Don't tell me she was not convicted, nor that she viewed her sin as a "lack of judgement"! She was convicted by the Holy Spirit, she rejected the conviction by the Holy Spirit in favor of her "religion", and if she were to die this instant, she would not be one of God's "elect".

The non elect are convicted, drawn, whatever you want to call it.

 

[J.D.]

As epistemaniac said:

"2Co 7:10 esv For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death."


The non-elect may sorrow for their misdeeds, but they are not subject to "godly sorrow". Judas repented that he had shed innocent blood. Was he saved? No. The non-elect have a conscience that, if not seared, is sensitive to natural order - it's a social conscience. They may fear the condemnation of their family, or society, or of the civil law, and they can even have a conscience toward God (as in knowing that there is a God), but only the elect will have a conscience toward God's word.

 

[J.D.]

and they can even have a conscience toward God (as in knowing that there is a God),

I'll take that back. I think it's more accurate to say that they, the non-elect, can have a consciousness toward God, but not a conscience toward God.

We do know for sure that the bible says that Baptism is the "answer of a good conscience toward God". That's why baptism is useless for the non-believer, because he has no good conscience toward God. And furthermore, the elect do not have a good conscience toward God until God gives them new birth by the power of His Spirit, whereby the love of God is shed abroad in their hearts.

 

[Me4Him]

"IF" God's will is that none perish, and it's up to God to make the call, wouldn't the call have to go to all those God is not willing to perish???

 

[Brother Bob]

JD:
Don't you ever worry that you may have it wrong. If we are wrong the elect will still go but if you have it wrong you have cut off a lot of God's children.

 

[Bro Tony]

Sounds almost like the calvinist are denying to some extent the doctrine of "total depravity". You cant have it both ways, that is what ive been told. Either men are totally unable to respond to God or godliness or they are not. Many are called but few are chosen. Oh Jerusalem how many times I have wanted to taken unto myself as a hen would her chicks--but you would not. All men are able to be convicted by the Holy Spirit, the question is what will a man do with that conviction. Accept or reject.

Bro Tony

 

[grahame]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
Sounds almost like the calvinist are denying to some extent the doctrine of "total depravity". You cant have it both ways, that is what ive been told. Either men are totally unable to respond to God or godliness or they are not. Many are called but few are chosen. Oh Jerusalem how many times I have wanted to taken unto myself as a hen would her chicks--but you would not. All men are able to be convicted by the Holy Spirit, the question is what will a man do with that conviction. Accept or reject.

Bro Tony

Not at all. The point is that no one knows who are the elect. That is why we are commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. It is not up to us to judge who is under true conviction of sin or not. If we do that there is a danger that we will fail at some point to preach the gospel. It is we who preach the gospel. It is God who gives the increase.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, but if they are already the "elect" then they don't need you or me.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by grahame:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro Tony:
Sounds almost like the calvinist are denying to some extent the doctrine of "total depravity". You cant have it both ways, that is what ive been told. Either men are totally unable to respond to God or godliness or they are not. Many are called but few are chosen. Oh Jerusalem how many times I have wanted to taken unto myself as a hen would her chicks--but you would not. All men are able to be convicted by the Holy Spirit, the question is what will a man do with that conviction. Accept or reject.

Bro Tony

Not at all. The point is that no one knows who are the elect. That is why we are commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. It is not up to us to judge who is under true conviction of sin or not. If we do that there is a danger that we will fail at some point to preach the gospel. It is we who preach the gospel. It is God who gives the increase. </font>[/QUOTE]"IF" they are "elect", it doesn't matter if they hear the gospel or not, God will call them with an "Irresistable", "Effectual calling" and give them the faith to believe and they'll be saved, the hearing/believing of the individual isn't necessary when God's sovereign will is being exercised, so let's all go fishing.

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Yea, but if they are already the "elect" then they don't need you or me.

Not true. The preaching of the Gospel is the means by which people are saved (along with faith). Romans 10.

 

[Tom Butler]

Me4Him said

"IF" they are "elect", it doesn't matter if they hear the gospel or not, God will call them with an "Irresistable", "Effectual calling" and give them the faith to believe and they'll be saved, the hearing/believing of the individual isn't necessary when God's sovereign will is being exercised, so let's all go fishing.

I know of no Calvinist who believes this. What you are describing is Hyper-Calvinism, which Calvinists believe is just as unbiblical as Arminianism

Grahame and Andy T got it right.