Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
1. Misinterpret all the clear passages about "God so loved the whole world that whosoever would believe would not perish but have everlasting life.

First, YOU inserted the word "whole", but that doesn't matter much. Calvinists believe the verse means exactly what it says. Whosoever believes will not perish. The verse never addresses why one believes and another does not. Free willers have to add their philosophy to that verse to make it fit their doctrine.

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
2. Misinterpret all the passages with words like "world" to mean a select group, even when the context demands all peoples without distinction of race, nationality, etc.

Show us a free willer's favorite passage where the context truly demands all people without exception.

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
3. Misinterpret passages with words like "any" and "all" to mean a select group without exception, even when the context demands "all means all" and "every creature". (See Mark 16:15)

Show us a free willer's favorite passage where the context truly demands "any" means any person who ever lived, lives, or will live, without exception. Explain why the context demands this interpretation.

I find it amusing that free willers always expand the scope of "any", "world", etc. to include every person without exception. But when the word election appears, they narrow the scope to some arbitrary limit like the apostles, Jews, etc.

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
4. Maintain the extra-Biblical opinion that God didn't mean all when He said "all" to choose. This is the most astounding one of all, since the Bible never says this, Salvation is not to everyone who will believe.

Again, Calvinists agree 100% that everyone who believes will not perish. Free willers simply force "whosoever" to mean it is open to everyone. Unfortunately for free willers, the verse could just as easily have said "whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller". The phrase "whosoever believes" does not mean anything more than "whosoever believes". "Whosoever believes" will NOT perish. Now -- why does one person believe and another not believe? The verse doesn't address this question.

 

[Me4Him]

Many people have a problem separation the flesh and from the soul, (Conscience/Heart)

The flesh doesn't stand in Judgment, it has nothing to lose, Dust back to dust, however the Soul does stand in Judgment, and it knows "good from evil".

Ge 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, (A god) to know good and evil:

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

God gave the law describing sin to man, which no man can deny understanding/knowing, and being a god with the knowledge to chose between good/evil is why the soul is held accountable, but the flesh isn't, dust to dust, so "Total depravity" as described by calvin contradicts the scriptures.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Mal 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you,

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
Anyone who is saved by faith and the grace of Jesus Christ is chosen. There is no Plan A and Plan B.

Anyone who is chosen will be saved by grace through faith... and THAT not of themselves.

 

[Me4Him]

Many people in the world have "FAITH" in God, but will that "FAITH" save them, NO.

The "NAME"..."JESUS" is not include in their faith.

Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


Having faith will not save, but Faith in Jesus is a "prerequisite" to being saved, that's taught throughout the scriptures.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,

1. Repent, and
2. be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for
3. the remission of sins,

Sins are never "remitted" (person regenerated) until after faith is placed in Jesus.

And it's "our faith" not God's faith.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

IF, your choice.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
IF, your choice.

If the moon was destroyed by a comet, the result would probably devastate the earth. IF, the moon's choice.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Because the plan of Salvation is already fulfilled that is why Jesus said "it is finished".

What was finished? You are arguing that until a person of their own free and good will believe their salvation is NOT finished. It is only finished when they add their magical little drop of goodness to Christ's otherwise powerless sacrifice.

Goodness? Don't know what you are talking about. You can call it goodness if you like but I call it following the good Spirit instead of the evil one.

And how would you characterize that choice? A "good" choice, right? Now, where did that goodness originate? That is what this whole debate boils down to: Whose goodness caused you to make the right choice?

I have never, nor do I believe any man can save himself, C or A but believe you have to follow the Spirit of God which "draws all men".

If you have to "follow" of your own "good motives" then you most certainly are saving yourself since this action becomes the critical difference between the lost and the saved.

IOW's, if you are saved because you "follow" and someone else is not saved because they don't "follow" then you have made the most important contribution to your salvation. The most factor in your salvation ceases to be God's grace and becomes your good free will choice.

This is really an inescapable conclusion. There are some very good apologists for the non-calvinist/arminian position here. None have been able to adequately answer this question/objection to your system.

The goodness to make that critical decision comes from somewhere. Simply put, From where does it come?

I am saying Paul was a chosen vessel and you and I are not.

And I am saying that idea is wholly and completely unbiblical.

God chooses and uses each of us. We each have a place in the body of Christ. 1 Cor 12 among other passages discusses this very concept. We are gifted to serve in a particular way just like the parts of a body are "pre-destined" to a particular function within the body.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
IF, your choice.

If the moon was destroyed by a comet, the result would probably devastate the earth. IF, the moon's choice. </font>[/QUOTE]if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

if ye believe ... that I am he, ye shall not die in your sins.

You need to "upgrade" your "reading comprehension".

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Many people in the world have "FAITH" in God, but will that "FAITH" save them, NO.

Never suggested that it would... What in the world this diversion has to do with anything I simply do not know.

Having faith will not save, but Faith in Jesus is a "prerequisite" to being saved, that's taught throughout the scriptures.

"Having" faith in Jesus is certainly a necessary part of salvation... but why does one have faith while another does not?

According to your side, it is because the person is somehow good enough to choose well. According to our side, it is because God in His goodness and grace chose them. Who does your Bible say is good? Who does your Bible say is not good?

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,

1. Repent, and
2. be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for
3. the remission of sins,

Sins are never "remitted" (person regenerated) until after faith is placed in Jesus.

You have made a false equation between "regenerate" and "remit". Beyond that, you have ignored the word "for" which indicates that the purpose is remission. This is NOT a statement of order.

And it's "our faith" not God's faith.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

IF, your choice.

Notice a couple of critical things here. One, it doesn't say "our faith" and even if it did that would not prove one thing about the source of the goodness that led to "our faith". I have "my nose"... but the source of "my nose" wasn't anything I chose but rather the genetics of my ancestors.

Two, this verse says EXACTLY what we have been saying about the lost. They choose unrighteousness consistently even when the gospel is preached to them by Jesus Himself. If anyone were ever going to make the right choice surely it would be under the direct preaching of God in flesh, would it not?

Three, in the very same context Jesus said:

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

What does verse 47 say? He that is of God heareth God's words... those who are not do not hear them... Yes. One must be "of God" before they can hear and believe.

 

[Brother Bob]

Acts, chapter 9
"15": But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Not bibical?

As for the rest of the posts it is the same old thing and I for one am not going swap back and forth all your nonsense. I don't believe in babies in hell and apparently you do. Calvinist follow each other from post to post like follow the leader.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
IF, your choice.

If the moon was destroyed by a comet, the result would probably devastate the earth. IF, the moon's choice. </font>[/QUOTE]if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

if ye believe ... that I am he, ye shall not die in your sins.

You need to "upgrade" your "reading comprehension".

</font>[/QUOTE]If the moon is destroyed by a comet, the result would probably devastate the earth.

If the moon is NOT destroyed by a comet, the result would not affect the earth.

IF, the moon's choice, according to you.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
As for the rest of the posts it is the same old thing and I for one am not going swap back and forth all your nonsense. I don't believe in babies in hell and apparently you do. Calvinist follow each other from post to post like follow the leader.

Huh? Babies in hell? Where did THAT come from? Is that a drive-by Calvinist shooting? We can return in kind, you know.

I don't believe that man should get the glory for his salvation, but apparently you do. Free willers follow each other from post to post like follow the leader.

Okay? Is that how you want to play? Seems rather silly to me.

 

[Brother Bob]

Hey np;
Is that how you want to play? After you posted the poems and out of the blue posted all those negative things about free-willers and then say "is that how you want to play" get real.

I am out of this one, getting to harsh.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Hey np;
Is that how you want to play? After you posted the poems and out of the blue posted all those negative things about free-willers and then say "is that how you want to play" get real.

I am out of this one, getting to harsh.

I think you've got the wrong guy. I didn't post any poems. I thought they were funny, but I didn't post them.

I also think there's a big difference between claiming that free willism is based in pride, and claiming that Calvinists believe babies go to hell. I'd explain the difference but I don't think it would matter to you.

 

[Brother Bob]

It has been posted on BB before by some of the calvinist that there were some who believed that. The post are gone now but you were there. I believe that John Calvin himself believed that if I am not mistaken. Anyway I think you believe that there are children who died who are not the "elect" but I may be mistaken.

Also our favorite passage John 3:16 is one of many. We have counteracted you calvinist but you are the ones who will not accept the truth in MHO.

I may have the wrong guy for I am not sure but I will look and if I made a mistake I will apologize. You can go back one page and see where you posted all the things trying to make fun of so called free-willers.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:


Also our favorite passage John 3:16 is one of many. We have counteracted you calvinist but you are the ones who will not accept the truth in MHO.

The truth of what???!!!????

You insert ideas and even words into John 3:16 then demand that we will not accept the truth because we simply accept what the verse says without your additions?

John 3:16 says "whosoever believeth... will not perish". As has been pointed out to you before, it says absolutely NOTHING about WHY a person believes... However in full context of John 3 we are told why they believe. Jesus told Nicodemus... "you must be born again to "see" the kingdom of God".

 

[J.D.]

WHY a person believes?

"the wind (pneuma, spirit) bloweth where it listeth (will, desires)... but thou canst not tell from whence it cometh or wither it goeth. So is every one that is born of the spirit."

paraphrase

 

[Brother Bob]

wonder why Jesus told them "you must be born again" if it was all taken care of.

 

[Brother Bob]

Ok nept;
I apologize for saying you posted the poem it was someone else.

Blessings,
BBob

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
[qb] Many people in the world have "FAITH" in God, but will that "FAITH" save them, NO.

Never suggested that it would... What in the world this diversion has to do with anything I simply do not know.

Having faith will not save, but Faith in Jesus is a "prerequisite" to being saved, that's taught throughout the scriptures.

"Having" faith in Jesus is certainly a necessary part of salvation... but why does one have faith while another does not?

Notice a couple of critical things here. One, it doesn't say "our faith" and even if it did that would not prove one thing about the source of the goodness that led to "our faith".

According to your side, it is because the person is somehow good enough to choose well. According to our side, it is because God in His goodness and grace chose them. Who does your Bible say is good? Who does your Bible say is not good?</font>[/QUOTE]According to you/calvin, Faith in God is not possible unless God "give that faith", but as I just showed, people have Faith in God even when God is not in that faith.

Your "theory" just got "shot down".

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,

1. Repent, and
2. be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for
3. the remission of sins,

Sins are never "remitted" (person regenerated) until after faith is placed in Jesus.

You have made a false equation between "regenerate" and "remit". Beyond that, you have ignored the word "for" which indicates that the purpose is remission. This is NOT a statement of order.

If you're saved (regenerated) before you believe, then who needs Jesus to die for sins you no longer have???

Two, this verse says EXACTLY what we have been saying about the lost. They choose unrighteousness consistently even when the gospel is preached to them by Jesus Himself. If anyone were ever going to make the right choice surely it would be under the direct preaching of God in flesh, would it not?

That's why many ARE called, but few accept the words of Jesus.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

What does verse 47 say? He that is of God heareth God's words... those who are not do not hear them... Yes. One must be "of God" before they can hear and believe.

As I said If you're "first saved", then Jesus isn't needed.

The reason they can't hear is not their ears, but their heart, "Unbelief", even Jesus told them why they couldn't hear,

why do ye not believe me?

The reason people can't hear his words is that they close their eyes, hearts, minds, to the gospel, if it wasn't for that, Jesus could "heal" (save) them.

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

People are free to put their faith in "whatever" name/God they chose, but choosing the right name make the difference.

 

[Brother Bob]

Scripture says they loved darkness rather than light. They love the women, booze, wild living, swearing, lying, sin etc.