Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?

[Brother Bob]

quote: BBob--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am saying Paul was a chosen vessel and you and I are not.
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Scott J
And I am saying that idea is wholly and completely unbiblical.

BBob
Acts, chapter 9
"15": But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

I am saying it is Biblical

bump;

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Scripture says they loved darkness rather than light. They love the women, booze, wild living, swearing, lying, sin etc.

Don't forget, rejecting what the scripture say.

 

[Scott J]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: BBob--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am saying Paul was a chosen vessel and you and I are not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott J
And I am saying that idea is wholly and completely unbiblical.

BBob
Acts, chapter 9
"15": But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am saying it is Biblical

Please point out the words in that verse that says only Paul or only the Apostles were elect. The verse says that he was a chosen vessel which points to his Apostleship and ministry.

You have ignored the context as is so often the case with critics of calvinism. Ananias was concerned because of Paul's recent persecution of the church. God reassures him that Paul was a "chosen vessel". Nowhere in this passage does God say anything to support your contention that only the Apostles were elect. They were in fact elect to salvation and to a very special ministry... but that does not prove that others are not elect and ordained to a ministry as well.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
wonder why Jesus told them "you must be born again" if it was all taken care of.

Wonder why Jesus specifically used the analogy of birth if the conception of salvation was a choice by the individual rather than a choice by a progenitor?

 

[saturneptune]

Really, undecided which side of this debate I fall on. If I had to decide on graciousness and demeanor, Brother Bob would win hands down, dont ya think Npet? Calvinism makes sense, but the messengers are quite harsh.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
wonder why Jesus told them "you must be born again" if it was all taken care of.

Wonder why Jesus specifically used the analogy of birth if the conception of salvation was a choice by the individual rather than a choice by a progenitor? </font>[/QUOTE]"Under the law", Gods not obligated to save anyone, all have sinned.

Anyone who is saved is saved by the "GRACE" of God's mercy, (Jesus dying) in spite of God's "justification" to condemn all.

And that Grace/Mercy is offer to all through their faith in Jesus, the reason he died for the sins of the "Whole world".

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
According to you/calvin, Faith in God is not possible unless God "give that faith",

Not exactly what I said. To quibble a little, I believe that God changed our spirit by regeneration in such a way that our faith will be rightly targeted. He opened our spiritual eyes so we can see clearly the truth of the gospel.

but as I just showed, people have Faith in God even when God is not in that faith.

Your "theory" just got "shot down".

Ummm. Nope. People by default have faith. Most put faith in a god of their own creation. Many even use the Bible as a means to create such a false god. You came pretty close to having it right when you made the difference that God is in the faith of some but not in the faith of others... but that presence is by His good will, not ours.

If in fact you "did" prove that, you would have helped rather than hurt my argument.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,

1. Repent, and
2. be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for
3. the remission of sins,

Sins are never "remitted" (person regenerated) until after faith is placed in Jesus.

You have made a false equation between "regenerate" and "remit". Beyond that, you have ignored the word "for" which indicates that the purpose is remission. This is NOT a statement of order.

If you're saved (regenerated) before you believe, then who needs Jesus to die for sins you no longer have???</font>[/QUOTE] That objection is non-sensical. Regeneration is an element of salvation, the prime cause for individual salvation, not the whole thing. Those terms are not synonyms.

Christ died to provide atonement. Regeneration is the change of spirit/will that accompanies application of the atonement.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Two, this verse says EXACTLY what we have been saying about the lost. They choose unrighteousness consistently even when the gospel is preached to them by Jesus Himself. If anyone were ever going to make the right choice surely it would be under the direct preaching of God in flesh, would it not?

That's why many ARE called, but few accept the words of Jesus. </font>[/QUOTE] You didn't answer the question and that IS NOT what that verse says. It does not say "but few accept the words of Jesus". It says many are called but few chosen. Boy isn't that inconvenient to your cause... but very, very telling concerning the biblical integrity of your position.

Why would you feel compelled to change the words of a reference to make it fit your argument?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

What does verse 47 say? He that is of God heareth God's words... those who are not do not hear them... Yes. One must be "of God" before they can hear and believe.

As I said If you're "first saved", then Jesus isn't needed.</font>[/QUOTE] And you truly erred... apparently not knowing the scriptures.

But even that doesn't cover it since I quoted scripture to you and you responded with a disagreement with it.

The reason they can't hear is not their ears, but their heart, Actually their spirit but... that is exactly my point. The heart is desparately wicked. The imaginings of human hearts are continually evil. There is none good, no not one.

[qb]"Unbelief", even Jesus told them why they couldn't hear,

Are you twisting this scripture intentionally or didn't you read it? Verse 47 didn't say they didn't hear because they didn't believe... it says they were not of God therefore they couldn't hear.

Faith comes by hearing... If one cannot has not received spiritual ears then they will not have faith.

The reason people can't hear his words is that they close their eyes, hearts, minds, to the gospel, if it wasn't for that, Jesus could "heal" (save) them.

Jesus CAN heal/save them. He is God. He is sovereign.

People won't hear because they are not "of God". See John 1:11-13. People must be born of the will of God... to be "of God".

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Amen. God has rightly judged men guilty for rejecting Him.

This provides absolutely no help though for your contention that man of his own accord and good will opens his ears, eyes, or understanding. Rather it is very clear that God opens the eyes of those who believe, gives them hearing, and grants them understanding that they don't have of themselves.

People are free to put their faith in "whatever" name/God they chose, but choosing the right name make the difference.

Yes... but that isn't in dispute nor does it any more naturally follow your argument than mine. What is of dispute is WHY one will make the right choice while another will not.

Again, you system necessitates that it is some goodness on the part of the sinner that believes while we contend that it is all of God's goodness.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
wonder why Jesus told them "you must be born again" if it was all taken care of.

Wonder why Jesus specifically used the analogy of birth if the conception of salvation was a choice by the individual rather than a choice by a progenitor? </font>[/QUOTE]"Under the law", Gods not obligated to save anyone, all have sinned.</font>[/QUOTE] Whoooooaaa. That is NOT what you are teaching. You are teaching that God is obligated to respect man's choice. You demand that if God sovereignly chooses to save some then He is in fact "obligated" to give everyone equal opportunity... that it would be unfair if God elected some of those who sinned while allowing others to continue in their sin.

Anyone who is saved is saved by the "GRACE" of God's mercy,

You'll have to flesh that statement out a little better. What is the "GRACE" of God's mercy? "Jesus dying" makes atonement for sin. Grace is the application of that atonement resulting in our being given something we don't deserve.

in spite of God's "justification" to condemn all.

You rightly say this but then object to the notion that God can sovereignly choose to save some and still be perfectly justified in condemning the remainder of this "all".

And that Grace/Mercy is offer to all through their faith in Jesus, the reason he died for the sins of the "Whole world".

Again the what the scripture actually says doesn't match the way you've used it.

That verse uses the word "propitiation" which has to do with sufficiency, not efficiency. I am not aware of many calvinists, here anyway, that argue that Christ's blood is not sufficient to cover even more sins than were ever commmitted. Propitiation doesn't deal with the extent of the application but rather with the quality/sufficiency of the covering itself.

Here is a comment/definition from dictionary.com:

that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent
with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The
propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it
consistent for him to execise his love towards sinners. In Rom. 3:25 and Heb.
9:5 (A.V., "mercy-seat") the Greek word _hilasterion_ is used. It is the word
employed by the LXX. translators in Ex. 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent
for the Hebrew _kapporeth_, which means "covering," and is used of the lid of
the ark of the covenant (Ex. 25:21; 30:6). This Greek word (hilasterion) came
to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitation or
reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried
the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and
sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation. In 1 John 2:2;
4:10, Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek
word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming
our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it,
by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Comp. Heb. 2:17, where the
expression "make reconciliation" of the A.V. is more correctly in the R.V.
"make propitiation.")

 

[Scott J]

BTW, the only alternative to this interpretation of 1 John 2:2 that comes close to matching the text is to declare universal atonement... which would make those words contradict other scripture.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

To refuse to do something that you cannot do anyway is not a sin.

It is a sin to refuse to repent and believe

Therefore men can repent and believe.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Always have to get down don't we?

why do you take a disagreement with you to be getting "down"? you seem every bit as "harsh" (*ie strong disagreement) as Calvinists are against all teachers of synergism (ie Roman Catholics and all Evangelical Christians who think that salvation is by faith through faith alone, ie individual election to salvation)

after all... its not as if the strong words come in one direction Bob.... for instance you can intimate that I am hard headed/hard hearted by saying

If you will have it but I doubt it.

I doubt you will come to agree with my position, and you doubt that I will agree to yours... does that make me any more stubborn or hard hearted then you?

epistemaniac;
He was praying, what do you think he was praying for??

Who does He think He is? King of King and Lord of Lords and Paul was a chosen vessel. Now if you want to talk about the "elect" I will agree that Paul was one of them because he was part of God's plan of Salvation along with the rest of the Apostles who were pre-chosen. I always believed that there are some who were chosen to fulfill The plan of Salvation.

the point here is this... you cannot prove your position by what is in the text,you are reading into it your synergistic views... and neither can Me4him.... sure he prayed... but he prayed the whole time he was killing Christians, as he was busy being about "God's work". The point is, Paul's experience goes against everything that Arminianism (or, if you prefer, synergism) teaches about salvation, namely that it is a cooperative enterprise, where God does His part and He has to wait until man does his.... and if God can elect Paul from birth, as Paul says he was, who is to say that God would not have the right to do so with everyone? After all, if it is granted that God elected one person to salvation, to grant them saving faith, a regenerated heart so that he believed and was saved, then the Arminian/semi pelagian has to object saying that it was not fair for God to do this with one person... though we do not see Paul complaining about this and you grant that He may have done it for many others as well, though I guess you get to be the one who says when its right for God to do this and when its wrong for Him....? If God is righteous and just in doing as He will with the relatively small group you are granting are elected, then it is simply special pleading and arbitrary for you to restrict God's work on individual hearts to those few you want to grant... the fact is, God saves people in the way He always saves people, and in this regard, the disciples are no more "special" then you or I... we are all simply sinners saved by grace through faith alone... and we were saved before the foundation of the world, prior to any of us doing anything good or bad, but rather, that God's purpose in election might stand....

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
Anyone who is saved by faith and the grace of Jesus Christ is chosen. There is no Plan A and Plan B.

exactly, I am glad to see you finally agreeing to individual election to salvation... Jesus reminds us that He does the choosing after all...

Joh 15:16 NKJV You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


Joh 15:19 NKJV If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

and lest anyone wants to restrict this to the disciples... thats a no-go... Jesus says that this is for everyone to whom He would be sending the Comforter... the Helper... and all Christians recieve this Comfort from the Helper... if they do not, they are not Christians... after all, we easily (and rightly) apply Jesus' words about the world hating us (all Christians)... Joh 15:18 NKJV If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you."
therefore it equally applies that Jesus chose us, we did not choose Him... for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...
Eph 1:3-6 NKJV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
To refuse to do something that you cannot do anyway is not a sin.

It is a sin to refuse to repent and believe

Therefore men can repent and believe.

wrong... God commands us to be holy as He is holy... we can't do that... so is it wrong for God to command us to do what He knows we cannot do? God commands us to not sin, is He wrong for doing that because He knows perfectly well and good that we will still sin?

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

and Arminians still have to come to grips with this.... regarding the whole "Calvinism really can't preach the gospel to everyone because only the elect will come to believe, thus sharing the gospel with everyone is a sham" perspective because it is a plain fact that God knows all those who are His, He has known from all eternity who would believe and who would not, so the Arminian is preaching the gospel to people that the Lord knows will never repent and believe the gospel.... and so as long as the doctrine of God's exhaustive foreknowledge holds out, Arminianism is an irrational perspective.. that is why the Open Theists recognized this Achilles heel of Arminianism and as a result, had to eject God's exhaustive foreknowledge to say that God doesn't really know the future exhaustively, so God really is surprised when people come to believe in Him!!... thus they have moved into blatant heresy by denying God's exhaustive foreknowledge, but at least they are logically consistent....

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

epistemaniac;
Sorry if I sounded offensive but we go around and around. I have a lot of friends who believe as you do and they are Primitive Baptist who I love all of them and they love me also. We won't get on this subject because we know we are not going to change the other. We used to be together but split over this very issue and maybe that is why I sound harsh sometimes defending the position I have taken, I don't know but both side get way way too harsh. When we cut the other one down we are going to get a harsh answer right back.

Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel and was an Apostle to try and judge us as being equal with him is just will not work, for I have always believed in the predestination of the Apostles and the coming of Jesus Christ.

I also want to add that He concluded all under sin and that none is good no not one. We all need the mercy and grace of our Lord through faith in Him. The Bible is full of those that moved out on faith and received Salvation. If someone was pre-chosen according if he moved out on his faith and he sat on his buff and never did anything then I am afraid he would join the rich man in hell.

Acts, chapter 9
"15": But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

 

[Brother Bob]

We answer you but it goes in one ear and out the other. I just gave some advice on a church protecting itself and was attacked by all calvinist. Do you think they attacked me for telling them how they should be ready and prepared for living in this world for He hath chosen us out of the world but we are still in it and must be able to defend outselves for if they could they would take our buildings and everything we have accomplished. To think otherwise is foolish just watch the news and look at the churches that were burned down and that is not the end just the beginning. I for one will be as prepared as I possibly can and to be attacked for trying to help others and called being on a high horse and many other things is just uncalled for, but youth will do that.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Scott J:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
[qb] According to you/calvin, Faith in God is not possible unless God "give that faith",

Not exactly what I said. To quibble a little, I believe that God changed our spirit by regeneration in such a way that our faith will be rightly targeted. He opened our spiritual eyes so we can see clearly the truth of the gospel.

but as I just showed, people have Faith in God even when God is not in that faith.

People have the "free will" to "believe" anything they chose, this forum proves that, you can believe calvin, Bob, Me, anyone you chose, and it's the same with believing God.


Your "theory" just got "shot down". (again)

Nope. People by default have faith. Most put faith in a god of their own creation. Many even use the Bible as a means to create such a false god. You came pretty close to having it right when you made the difference that God is in the faith of some but not in the faith of others... but that presence is by His good will, not ours.


You have made a false equation between "regenerate" and "remit". Beyond that, you have ignored the word "for" which indicates that the purpose is remission. This is NOT a statement of order.

If you're saved (regenerated) before you believe, then who needs Jesus to die for sins you no longer have???

That objection is non-sensical. Regeneration is an element of salvation, the prime cause for individual salvation, not the whole thing. Those terms are not synonyms.

Christ died to provide atonement. Regeneration is the change of spirit/will that accompanies application of the atonement.

Wrong, Regeneration is the "ABSENT OF SIN", which only comes "After", faith in Jesus, the atonement that "took away" your sins, making regeneration possible.

Without an atonment for sin, (Jesus) God doesn't save anyone, that's why faith in Jesus comes "first".

Two, this verse says EXACTLY what we have been saying about the lost. They choose unrighteousness consistently even when the gospel is preached to them by Jesus Himself. If anyone were ever going to make the right choice surely it would be under the direct preaching of God in flesh, would it not?


The reason they can't hear is not their ears, but their heart, Actually their spirit but... that is exactly my point. The heart is desparately wicked. The imaginings of human hearts are continually evil. There is none good, no not one.

Do you know what "good" means, without sin, not that they don't know good from evil, they do.

What was the reason Jesus said they could hear his words, God's fault, or them closing their eye/ears/hearts???

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

And if they didn't close their eye/ears/hearts,

and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Are you twisting this scripture intentionally or didn't you read it? Verse 47 didn't say they didn't hear because they didn't believe... it says they were not of God therefore they couldn't hear.

Faith comes by hearing... If one cannot has not received spiritual ears then they will not have faith.

When Jesus invited the Jews to the marriage supper, who's fault was it that they rejected??

Mt 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mt 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Under calvin doctrine, God is accused of being at fault for the Jews rejecting Jesus, not giving them the faith to believe Jesus, but who
does the scripture say is at fault, Jesus said, I would, they wouldn't.

Who's lying???

[QUOTE}People won't hear because they are not "of God". See John 1:11-13. People must be born of the will of God... to be "of God".</font>[/QUOTE]God's will is that none perish, but some do, Is God's will "sovereign" in this area???

This provides absolutely no help though for your contention that man of his own accord and good will opens his ears, eyes, or understanding. Rather it is very clear that God opens the eyes of those who believe, gives them hearing, and grants them understanding that they don't have of themselves.

God calls, but the choice is man's, and he is judged for that choice, chosen/unchosen.

People are free to put their faith in "whatever" name/God they chose, but choosing the right name make the difference.

Yes... but that isn't in dispute nor does it any more naturally follow your argument than mine. What is of dispute is WHY one will make the right choice while another will not.

Chose ye this day whom ye will serve, whether unto death or righteousness.

you system necessitates that it is some goodness on the part of the sinner that believes while we contend that it is all of God's goodness.

If you'll learn the correct definition of "good" (without sin) and stop trying to say that man doesn't know "good from evil", then you'll know that man does recognize good from evil and make a choice between the two.

This is why God gave the law, so man could know what was sin and what wasn't. (good/evil)

 

[Me4Him]

Double post.

I have more trouble with this site than any.

Do ya seepost the devil is attempting to keep me from posting the "truth"???

 

[Me4Him]

Triple post.

devil is working "overtime".

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:

Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel and was an Apostle to try and judge us as being equal with him is just will not work, for I have always believed in the predestination of the Apostles and the coming of Jesus Christ.

To "qualify" as an "Apostle", one must to have "SEEN JESUS" in person, Paul said he was the "last".