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Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?

Me4Him

New Member
Originally posted by epistemaniac:
so the Arminian is preaching the gospel to people that the Lord knows will never repent and believe the gospel.... and so as long as the doctrine of God's exhaustive foreknowledge holds out, Arminianism is an irrational perspective.. that is why the Open Theists recognized this Achilles heel of Arminianism and as a result,
blessings,
Ken
But the preaching of the gospel to them who don't believe is not "irrational", it has a "purpose".

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If a person hears/accepts the gospel, it justification to saves,

If a person hears/reject the Gospel, it Justification to condemn,

But either way, the word won't return void in Judgment.

This is the reason the whole world will hear the gospel before the end comes.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So ya see, preaching to the lost, accomplishes it mission, whether it saves/condemns.
 

npetreley

New Member
Originally posted by Me4Him:
This is the reason the whole world will hear the gospel before the end comes.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So ya see, preaching to the lost, accomplishes it mission, whether it saves/condemns.
And not preaching the Gospel means the end can't come? Poor God - he's up there tapping His foot, "Dang, they're taking their sweet time. When will they finish preaching the Gospel to the whole world so I can come back?"
 

npetreley

New Member
Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
To refuse to do something that you cannot do anyway is not a sin.

It is a sin to refuse to repent and believe

Therefore men can repent and believe.
Non-sequitur. And a pelagian non-sequitur, at that.
 

npetreley

New Member
Originally posted by Brother Bob:
It has been posted on BB before by some of the calvinist that there were some who believed that. The post are gone now but you were there. I believe that John Calvin himself believed that if I am not mistaken. Anyway I think you believe that there are children who died who are not the "elect" but I may be mistaken.
Thank you for the apology re: the poem. Forgiven.

Re: Babies. You are mistaken. The Bible makes no clear statement about whether or not babies or the unborn are saved. I believe that God has mercy on them all. But that is ONLY my OPINION. That is not a Biblically-backed statement. That's what I believe but I am certain that whatever decision God makes on this matter is the right decision. He is, after all, God.

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
wonder why Jesus told them "you must be born again" if it was all taken care of.
I don't get this one. Jesus says you must be born again (lit. born from above). And we must be born from above because we're dead in our sins and must be made alive again (born from above). That is something the Spirit does, and the Spirit blows whichever way it will, not in ways we can see or direct, as Jesus says in the same passage. It certainly isn't a decision we make. We don't wake up one day and say, "I think I'll be born from above."
 

npetreley

New Member
Originally posted by saturneptune:
Really, undecided which side of this debate I fall on. If I had to decide on graciousness and demeanor, Brother Bob would win hands down, dont ya think Npet? Calvinism makes sense, but the messengers are quite harsh.
I'm not sure about who'd win. I'd say the drive by "babies going to hell" shooting was worse than anything I've said, but then we're all offended to different degrees by different things. Fortunately, this is not a contest.

Yes, the messengers can be quite harsh. If you don't believe me, read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will. If you want harsh, THAT is harsh. Hilariously sarcastic, but harsh.

That's the thing about truth, though. It doesn't change depending on the way you present it. Sometimes it is even desirable to present it in a way that is offensive to the listeners. It weeds out the fakes. For example:

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

[...]

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

[...]

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Surely Jesus could have toned this down and said (truthfully) that the new covenant would involve symbolic eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood through bread and wine. In that case, I suspect none of the disciples would have left. But Jesus didn't do that. He deliberately made it hard to receive, and that got rid of those who didn't really trust Him.

You see, truth is truth. Man errs when he sweetens it so that it will go down easier, especially if by sweetening it, it robs the truth of its impact. That's the problem with the recent fad of feel-good garbage like the Purpose Driven Life. It waters down (and omits) so much truth in order to make people feel good that it often crosses the border into lie-land.

By the way, you should read the whole chapter (John 6). It'd filled with lessons on election from beginning to end.
 

Brother Bob

New Member
All I know is we so called Free-Willers have to go and preach the gospel to lost sinners and they that hear, believe and repent is lifted up out of their sins. We have a commission and a duty to work for the Lord. It seems others just have to wait until due time and the Lord comes walking down the road and says "come with me". If we Free-Willers miss Heaven it won't be because we sit on our duff and didn't try to make it to Heaven. We so called Free-willers have this thing called "The grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men, teaching us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust, that we should live soberly and righteously in this present world, looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." For there is a spirit in man the inspiration of God all mighty that giveth him understanding. Now if we not want that understand, God don't force it on us. So you say, why did you choose to accept the understanding. Well, its because the Lord keeps striving with us and when I was a sinner something taught me if I died that way Hell would be my home. I wonder if all sinners are like me and knew they were a sinner and if so, I wonder who told them they were a sinner and lost if they don't repent. amen forever,
BBob
 

Brother Bob

New Member
I know one thing for sure I am not going to tell people that Jesus "loves" them and knowing that some of them He don't. It just don't make sense at all. I sang the song "Jesus loves me yes I know, for the Bible tells me so." Have we been singing and teaching little children to sing that song when its only partly true.
wave.gif
 

Scott J

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
To refuse to do something that you cannot do anyway is not a sin.

It is a sin to refuse to repent and believe

Therefore men can repent and believe.
Hyper-calvinists would argue with you but I as a calvinist will not on this issue.

Man's sins including disbelief are his responsibility. I know this is an extremely inconvenient response to the strawman you are alluding to... but none the less it is what I say and believe. Man is completely and totally responsible. Yet, he will always behave in a willful way that is consistent with his nature.

Man is "capable" of obeying the law but will not.

Consider that even Christians will not live sinless lives after salvation. I would be interested in one example of someone whose life refutes this truth. Yet we have far more power to do so than the unregenerate have to deny themselves in favor of Christ. We have the power from the indwelling Spirit but not the human will/submission to live without sinning.

The unregenerate don't have this. They live in complete subjection to their sinful flesh.
 

Scott J

Active Member
Site Supporter
Tom, I think I accidentally answered the issue in my last post.

Yes sinners have a conscience. Yes they can be convicted with guilt. Man is completely and totally responsible because of this to not sin... and to seek God. But he will not because that is not his desire... he is "of" his father the devil.

Sorrow isn't enough nor is simple repentance (reformation). Sinners must repent to Christ and that requires that they have spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear. They must have a change of nature.
 

Scott J

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by epistemaniac:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
To refuse to do something that you cannot do anyway is not a sin.

It is a sin to refuse to repent and believe

Therefore men can repent and believe.
wrong... God commands us to be holy as He is holy... we can't do that... so is it wrong for God to command us to do what He knows we cannot do? God commands us to not sin, is He wrong for doing that because He knows perfectly well and good that we will still sin?

blessings,
Ken
</font>[/QUOTE]I appreciate most of your posts but on this I disagree.

We are "able" to live holy. We simply are not willing. We make a completely volitional and conscious choice in sin... a choice for which God has provided an escape.

Because we are able, we are responsible. Because God knows all are unwilling, He must intervene if any are to be saved.
 

Me4Him

New Member
Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
To refuse to do something that you cannot do anyway is not a sin.

It is a sin to refuse to repent and believe

Therefore men can repent and believe.
Hyper-calvinists would argue with you but I as a calvinist will not on this issue.

Man's sins including disbelief are his responsibility. I know this is an extremely inconvenient response to the strawman you are alluding to... but none the less it is what I say and believe. Man is completely and totally responsible. Yet, he will always behave in a willful way that is consistent with his nature.

Man is "capable" of obeying the law but will not.

Consider that even Christians will not live sinless lives after salvation. I would be interested in one example of someone whose life refutes this truth. Yet we have far more power to do so than the unregenerate have to deny themselves in favor of Christ. We have the power from the indwelling Spirit but not the human will/submission to live without sinning.

The unregenerate don't have this. They live in complete subjection to their sinful flesh.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with what you say, but the disagreement is whether God gives "ALL MEN" an "equal opportunity" to be saved, without God's "intervention" either way in the decision, other than his "calling".

Calvin said God's call "enable" the decision, man can't refuse. (effectual/irresistable)

Arminian say God's call "enables" but man can refuse. (effectual but resistable)
 

Andy T.

Active Member
One man grows up in church all his life, because his parents are Christians. He goes every Sunday and hears the Gospel presented almost every week. His parents and family also plead with him to be saved all the time. Eventually, after years and years of hearing the message, he repents and believes on Christ.

Another man is raised by atheist parents. Therefore, he never darkens the door of church. His only exposure to the "Gospel" is through the occasional street preacher and a few TV preachers that he has flipped by while watching TV. He eventually dies in his sins without believing on Christ.

Did both men get an "equal opportunity" to be saved? How fair is that?
 

Brother Bob

New Member
There is a Spirit in man the inspiration of God Almighty that teacheth him right from wrong.

The Book of Job, chapter 32
"8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Andy T. Did you know you were a sinner before being saved and was there something inside of you telling you to not "do that"?
 

Me4Him

New Member
Originally posted by Andy T.:
One man grows up in church all his life, because his parents are Christians. He goes every Sunday and hears the Gospel presented almost every week. His parents and family also plead with him to be saved all the time. Eventually, after years and years of hearing the message, he repents and believes on Christ.

Another man is raised by atheist parents. Therefore, he never darkens the door of church. His only exposure to the "Gospel" is through the occasional street preacher and a few TV preachers that he has flipped by while watching TV. He eventually dies in his sins without believing on Christ.

Did both men get an "equal opportunity" to be saved? How fair is that?
That's because your 'limited" knowledge doesn't know how the "TRUTH" is manifestd to "ALL MEN".

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;


Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The problem with Cavin is that it attempts to explain scripture within the limitation of the carnal mind, just as the question you ask,

But God's laws are not just written in the bible, they're also written in "mens's heart", man knows "good from evil" without ever having heard the "gospel".

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

If Noah possessed the "knowledge" to be "righteous" enough to be saved, so could the world that was destroyed, and so it will at the end of time.
 

Andy T.

Active Member
Originally posted by Brother Bob:
There is a Spirit in man the inspiration of God Almighty that teacheth him right from wrong.

The Book of Job, chapter 32
"8": But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Andy T. Did you know you were a sinner before being saved and was there something inside of you telling you to not "do that"?
When I got saved, there was nothing I wanted more than to be saved. I can't remember everything that was going through my mind, I just know that I desperately wanted to be saved.
 

Andy T.

Active Member
Me4Him,

O.k., what about a man raised in the jungle who never hears the Gospel? Did he have equal opportunity like the first guy, or even the second guy? After all, in your response you said that the truth is manifested to "all men" (and I assume you mean every single individual), so you can't claim that the man in the jungle is innocent. But did he have equal opportunity to receive Christ?
 
So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

The man in the jungle who never heard the gospel and dies will still die a lost man. One cannot call out to a God he or she has never heard of.

Jesus Christ said in John 14:6 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.' If one never hears the name of Jesus, or rejects Jesus all his or her life, one has no chance of salvation by just calling out on the name of the Lord in his or her dying breath.

Let me clarify... When I say rejects Jesus all his life, I mean they do not listen to the gospel on TV, Radio or any other medium. They never open a Bible. They tell you to shut up when you try to witness to them, possibly slamming door in your face, or just turning up their music or TV to drown your voice. They refuse to hear the gospel all their life, there is no chance for life by calling out for forgiveness in dying breath. If they do not know the name of Jesus, how can they call out to Him?
 
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