Can the Non-Elect Come Under Conviction?

[Brother Bob]

Answer this first Scott J;
How did you know that the Lord wanted you to repent?

 

[Scott J]

IOW's, I think most of us here agree on the "how" of salvation. Most of us on "this side" are saying that God's goodness is the "why" rather than man's goodness.

Every effect has a cause. Keep asking why and you eventually get to the prime cause. Regardless of how many layers of "how" we put on salvation, it is my convicted belief that the ultimate, prime cause "why" is God's grace and goodness.

In fact in a way very much consistent with creation ex nihilo, I believe God is the ONLY genuinely creative "prime cause". We become "new creations" when saved. I do believe that man and Satan share the ability to be prime causes for corruption and sin... but not the creation of anything that can be viewed as "good" with comparison to God's holiness.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Answer this first Scott J;
How did you know that the Lord wanted you to repent?

I had sat under similar preaching for numerous sermons then.... He convicted me. God gave hearing to my spiritual ears to hear the gospel.

I take no credit for my salvation at all. Without the change wrought in me, I would have ignored Him for the rest of my life.

 

[Scott J]

Now, I answered your question. Please answer mine.

 

[Brother Bob]

Ok;
I might surprise you but as God appeared to you He appears to all men. Its just that you took heed but most will not. You or I do not have a lock on God striving with his creation to repent. Where we differ and I know you think God made you do it but He didn't, I think you could of refused but thank God you didn't.
The Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto "all" men. That is what happened to you and you took heed.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Ok;
I might surprise you but as God appeared to you He appears to all men. Its just that you took heed but most will not.

But what do you attributed that to? Me? Was I so wise, good, humble, smart, etc, etc, that I made a good decision while literally millions will not?

Where we differ and I know you think God made you do it

How do you know that since I haven't said it and don't think it? You have drawn a conclusion out of your own bias- created a straw man.

but He didn't,

No. He changed my nature and freed me from the bondage of sin. He gave me ears to hear and eyes to see. He liberated my will... He didn't "make" me do it any more than being rescued from drowning makes a person breath. Not only is it natural for them to breath, it is the thing they desire most... above everything else.

I think you could of refused but thank God you didn't.

I think I could have refused. But I do not believe that anyone to whom God has granted new spiritual life ever will refuse. Again, just as belief or absolute obedience to the law are contrary to the nature of the "natural" man... disbelief and persistent disobedience are contrary to the nature of the spiritually re-born man.

The Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto "all" men.

Cite the passage you are alluding to and let's discuss its context

That is what happened to you and you took heed.

You still haven't given a direct answer to my questions. You are evading the conclusion that you more than likely recognize is necessary for your system- giving credit to man's meritorious "good choice".

Yes. I took heed. And the Bible tells me why.

PS- You seem to get offended a little too easily. I don't hate you nor am I attacking you even when we get a little rough. If we were doing this in person, I'd probably hug your neck and take you out to dinner afterwards. I think there are people on both sides of this thing that go too far. I don't think you are in that camp. While I don't think you have a good answer for my "why" questions, I also don't think you're making an effort to steal glory from God... nor am I making an effort to make God guilty for the demise of the unrepentant... although to each of us that may seem to be the implication of our respective positions.

PSS- I would ask for your prayers. I am facing a very big decision about God's direction for my life.

 

[Brother Bob]

I certainly will pray for you.

You will not accept my answer, I have given it over and over. "God made us that way where we could receive it or deny it. It all belongs to God even our being, our breathing and our ability to choose".

You won't have it as an answer but it's a complete answer and a good one. What happened to you at the first part happened to all men, you just took heed to serve Him but most will not. I can't understand why you can't accept my answer. I am not going to say what you want me to and that is God caused me to repent. Again, If I believed that I would not bother preaching ever again.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
I certainly will pray for you.

You will not accept my answer, I have given it over and over. "God made us that way where we could receive it or deny it. It all belongs to God even our being, our breathing and our ability to choose".

The reason I don't "accept" it is that it doesn't answer the question.

If I asked you "Why was the world created?" and you began to recite Genesis 1-2 to me, I would say "That isn't an answer" even though we might both agree that a literal interpretation of Genesis is "how" the world was created.

Saying that God made us where we could receive it or deny it is no answer to the question: "Why does one receive it and one deny it?"

If you asked your child, "Why did you disobey me?" and they answered "I had a choice"... that wouldn't be an acceptable answer. You know they had a choice. But you don't know "why" they made the choice they did.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Maybe the correct way to phrase that question would be 'Why does one choose to accept or deny the truth?'

Then an answer could be given that would be more acceptable.

The bottom line, love of the things of the world will be the main reason people reject the truth.

A greater love for Christ will make one decide for Christ.

'Simon Peter, lovest thou Me more than these?'

 

[TheWinDork]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Release the hounds!

RELEASE THE HOUNDS!

You asked!

{Edited to remove oversize picture]

[ May 05, 2006, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[Brother Bob]

Scott J.;
I said exactly what SFiC said over and over but it just don't sink in. Sometimes I get a mental block and can't remember things.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Again, If I believed that I would not bother preaching ever again.

We're commanded to share the Gospel.

So if you believed we were unable to be saved unless God opened our eyes and ears, you would stop being obedient to God? You'd defy Him because you don't like the way He chooses to have mercy on some but not on others? God has to do it your way in order for you to be obedient?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Maybe the correct way to phrase that question would be 'Why does one choose to accept or deny the truth?'

Then an answer could be given that would be more acceptable.

I am fine with that question but the answer will either be sufficient or not based on whether it actually gets to the core of "why".

The bottom line, love of the things of the world will be the main reason people reject the truth.

I agree completely. We probably agree that this choice is a function of man's depravity, self-centeredness, self-worship, and sin nature.

Man is fully responsible for and credited with his guilt for which God rightly condemns him.

A greater love for Christ will make one decide for Christ.

Why does one possess this greater love for Christ? Where does it come from?

Is love not "good"? So then does not loving Christ make us good? And if that love comes only from our will... how can you possibly disagree that you are saved in some measure because you are better than those who didn't love Christ?

'Simon Peter, lovest thou Me more than these?'

Even Bro Bob agrees that Peter was elected...

 

[Brother Bob]

npetreley;
Didn't say that, as a matter of fact the post before that I gave God all the credit. I said if men had no chance to choose to come out of sin and serve the Lord and go to Heaven then it would be usless for me to preach and you too. You all have a hard time coming up with "why", I have seen you wrestle with it.

Share the Gospel with a lost and dying world, why?

 

[Scott J]

Bob, If you had a friend with cancer and heard that a treatment had been developed that worked on patients with certain physical predispositions would you tell him about the treatment? Would you drive him to the doctor to introduce him to the doctor? OR... would you say, "Well, there is a treatment, no need to introduce anyone to it?"

 

[Brother Bob]

No need if the doctor would not heal this particular person. Matter of fact it would be cruel to tell him that and when he got there the doctor told him, no you are not of the chosen.

You certainly would agree with that wouldn't you?

 

[jshurley04]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
My beloved new bride and I were discussing the subject of Holy Spirit Conviction and she asked the question, "Can a person who is not elect come under conviction?

Her point in asking the question was, if God knows who will reject Him, what's the point in bringing them under conviction in the first place?

She was asking the question from the point of view of someone who is not a full five-point Calvinist.

The Calvinist answer would logically be no. But shouldn't the non-Calvinist answer also be no?

Yet, many of us know of people who seemed to be obviously under great conviction (pew gripping, etc.) who to our knowledge never came to faith in Christ. Were they truly under Holy Spirit conviction or some sort of emotional reaction to a sermon or invitation?

Release the hounds!

Tom B.

There is no such thing as the Non-elect and if you read your Bible without your personal prejudice you will conclude the same thing.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
No need if the doctor would not heal this particular person. Matter of fact it would be cruel to tell him that and when he got there the doctor told him, no you are not of the chosen.

Really? You would assume that your friend was not suitable for this life saving treatment without even telling him about it?

Now THAT would be cruel. But practically speaking, I am all but certain that if you heard of such a cure that worked even on "some" but worked completely, that you would do all you could to point as many patients to that doctor as you could... even knowing that the cure would not be for all of them.

You certainly would agree with that wouldn't you?

Heavens, NO.

If I knew 10 people suffering and dying from the same cancer and found out about a doctor who saved 10% of those who came to him... I would do my best to get all 10 to him as quickly as possible.

 

[Brother Bob]

Even though he would see all 10?

I really think it would be cruel to tell all when all would not even receive the treatment but gleefully run, walk or get there someway if it took everything he owned and when he got there the doctor would say I will see you and you but the rest are not part of the chosen.

Say one thing for you Scott, you are persistant. lol

 

[Brother Bob]

You tell me Scott; that it is not an assumption but a reality. That is the whole message you are giving right.