Can the world-wide Christian Church be re-unified?

[Wittenberger]

Great post, Wittenberger--this is something that I've thought and wondered about as well.



It does seem very unlikely, but with God all things are possible.



And within the 'orthodox' and within the 'evangelicals' there are divisions as well. Of course, I've know of confessional Lutherans who've preferred the term 'Evangelical'.



That's probably a safe bet.



Good question. It would be hard to see how, since the latter have abandoned the historic episcopate (and so have many Lutherans for that matter).

.

Many in the Reformed camp would argue that they don't believe in a 'symbolic baptism or communion' at least in the Zwinglian sense, and many in the same camp would also bristle at rock-concert style worship services. However, it does seem to be the trend among Neo-Evangelicals to do the whole seeker-friendly service thing, complete with smoke, rock music, power point presentations, theatre style seats, and Starbucks coffee.

There are however Evangelicals who do consider Church history and the early patristic consensus important in establishing doctrine (Thomas Oden and D H Williams come to mind)--they just need to be more consistent in their application of this principle. :smilewinkgrin:



Not as easy as you would think. There's the whole Papal infallibility and supremacy thing along with the Filioque. There are some other issues as well, but these are the biggies. I could see the latter being resolved more easily (ie dropping the Filioque altogehter or changing it to "THROUGH the Son"), but the issues regarding the papacy would be much more complicated to resolve to the satisfaction of both--I think the RCC would have to do a lot of creative backtracking on papal infallibility to satisfy the EOC (and other Christians)


But neither the RCC or the EOC agree with justification 'sola fide', strictly speaking, particularly given James 2. I think that perhaps the relevent Anglican Articles and Homilies on Justification can provide a common ground to come up with a well-orbed statement on Justification that carefully considers both St. Paul's and St. Jame's concerns. However, I do know that there has already been a joint statment of sorts on justification by the RCC-Lutherans if I'm not mistaken.

I DO think it's important for all sides to agree that the MERITORIOUS GROUND of our justication is Christ's work alone and that we receive this by faith apart from the deeds of the law.



I also am all for giving Our Lady the proper respect, but some of the prayers or statements I've read about her in both the EOC and the RCC are somewhat scary in that they seem to dangerously blur the distinction between her role and the unique role of her SON (the Akathist hymn comes to mind).



I believe this is important to agree upon.



This is more or less true I'd suspect.



True, but before this takes place, the different groups would have to be in communion with each other again first (which would involve ironing out the differences listed above) in order to have a truly Church wide council. The RCC and the other 'orthodox' groups would have to agree on the role of the papacy. The East and West would have to agree on 'the Filioque'. The RCC/EOC would have to agree with the Lutherans and Anglicans about justification. And the Copts and other Oriental Orthodox communions would have to accept the teaching of councils 3-7 (if not the exact wording)

Western Christians should drop the Filioque. It is an addition to the original Nicene Creed. That would be a western compromise to bring the EOC into the reunified Church.

 

[Wittenberger]

Even though most evangelicals would probably not be interested in joining a unified, catholic (universal) Church, I think that a good idea for the Unified Church would be to appoint an Evangelical Patriarch, who would represent the evangelical views at any Church Council or Patriarchal Council.

They are our brothers and sisters in Christ, even if they don't seem to want to reunite with us.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Even though most evangelicals would probably not be interested in joining a unified, catholic (universal) Church, I think that a good idea for the Unified Church would be to appoint an Evangelical Patriarch, who would represent the evangelical views at any Church Council or Patriarchal Council.

They are our brothers and sisters in Christ, even if they don't seem to want to reunite with us.

The way I see it is that we will all be united in the End.

 

[Yeshua1]

The way I see it is that we will all be united in the End.

You dont want to be part of that "unification", as the bible calls THAT Church the whore of babylon!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You dont want to be part of that "unification", as the bible calls THAT Church the whore of babylon!

That was the most juvinile response that wasn't thought out that I've heard! Try putting some thought into your responses. Just as God proved to Satan... Just because you make an accusation doesn't make it true.

 

[Yeshua1]

That was the most juvinile response that wasn't thought out that I've heard! Try putting some thought into your responses. Just as God proved to Satan... Just because you make an accusation doesn't make it true.

the ONLY time in history there will be a physical/visible Church unity will be in end times, called Apostate Church, following Antichrist, not real One!

There will be many saved during that time, but NOT part of that unholy "organized religion!"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

the ONLY time in history there will be a physical/visible Church unity will be in end times, called Apostate Church, following Antichrist, not real One!

There will be many saved during that time, but NOT part of that unholy "organized religion!"

Please site scripture verses please.

 

[Yeshua1]

Please site scripture verses please.

chapters 17/18 of revelation, the RCC views it through lense of A mil....

 

[Doubting Thomas]

the ONLY time in history there will be a physical/visible Church unity will be in end times, called Apostate Church, following Antichrist, not real One!

There will be many saved during that time, but NOT part of that unholy "organized religion!"

Umm, there was a unified visible CHURCH at the beginning also. Those that broke off were, for the most part, the heretics, although a few were merely schismatics, in the case of groups like the Novatians in the 3rd century who were otherwise orthodox.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

chapters 17/18 of revelation, the RCC views it through lense of A mil....

I read the book of revelation and chapters 17 and 18 refer to a city which we can see in chapter 17. Not a visible church. The city they name it is Babylon which can refer to 3 cities during ancient times. 1) Babylon 2) ancient Rome and 3) Jerusalem. If ancient Rome then be happy because ancient Rome no longer exist. Just like in the prophesy in the book of Daniel a stone which was not made by a man was thrown down destroying the statue fromt he feet up. This stone not made by human hands was the Church which was victorious over Ancient Rome and destroyed its value system. Just read the chapters its pretty clear what it says.

“Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman...the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated... And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth

 

[Yeshua1]

I read the book of revelation and chapters 17 and 18 refer to a city which we can see in chapter 17. Not a visible church. The city they name it is Babylon which can refer to 3 cities during ancient times. 1) Babylon 2) ancient Rome and 3) Jerusalem. If ancient Rome then be happy because ancient Rome no longer exist. Just like in the prophesy in the book of Daniel a stone which was not made by a man was thrown down destroying the statue fromt he feet up. This stone not made by human hands was the Church which was victorious over Ancient Rome and destroyed its value system. Just read the chapters its pretty clear what it says.

rome of the end times, where the Antichrist rules out from, and where the Apostate church resides!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

rome of the end times, where the Antichrist rules out from, and where the Apostate church resides!

There may be a future City which is referred to as Rome to which the book is also refering to. I think a better fit is Jerusalem as God is always comparing Jews who don't follow him as prostitutes but I grant its up to interpretation which city is spoken of. However, it says nothing of a visible church and its a political city. The Catholic Church's vatican is not Rome. It does not sit on seven hills but one. And the Pope isn't in charge of any political leaders. So you've identified the wrong institution.

 

[Wittenberger]

As Galatians 4:26 states, the Church is our mother.

There should be one Mother Church, one bride of Christ. When the Bible discusses the "church" it is not talking about individual, independent churches, but one Holy Church.

Let us all pray that our Mother will soon be reunited!

 

[Yeshua1]

As Galatians 4:26 states, the Church is our mother.

There should be one Mother Church, one bride of Christ. When the Bible discusses the "church" it is not talking about individual, independent churches, but one Holy Church.

Let us all pray that our Mother will soon be reunited!

There already IS one body/bride/church, and its NOT the RCC!

 

[Wittenberger]

There already IS one body/bride/church, and its NOT the RCC!

I didn't say it was the RCC. But the Church is divided, we should all strive to reunite it, not necessarily with Rome at the lead. The governance would need to be negotiated.

 

[Fred's Wife]

As Galatians 4:26 states, the Church is our mother.

Galatians 4:26 does not state that the Church is our "mother". The apostle Paul is drawing from the history of Hagar being cast out of Abraham's home. Hagar answers to the covenant of law and to Jerusalem then in bondage; and Sarah to the covenant of promise and to Jerusalem above, which is free. The conclusion as to the believer is, `so then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free.' The Christian is not under the law nor in the flesh; but is free, under grace. Being the seed of Abraham according to promise, that is, being `of Christ,' or ` Christ's,' the gospel and new covenant blessings have come to believers through Him, and they are reckoned as of God's city, Jerusalem above, that is free. The church is of God's eternal counsel, heavenly, and is never in scripture called a "mother" (Concise Bible Dictionary. Addison: Bible Truth Publishers.).

The "allegory" begins at Galatians 4:21 and ends with verse 26:

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

There should be one Mother Church, one bride of Christ. When the Bible discusses the "church" it is not talking about individual, independent churches, but one Holy Church.

The Church which was established by and founded upon Jesus Christ (Matthew 16:18) is NOT our "Mother", but that ONE church is HIS church and HIS Body! Jesus said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". The unity of the Body of Christ is based on Truth (unity of the Spirit):

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Ephesians 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Let us all pray that our Mother will soon be reunited!

The "Mother" that will be "reunited" will be the apostate church under the rule of Antichrist! Our prayer should be that those who are now seeking a false "ecumenical" unity will see the TRUTH and "Come out" from that "Mother" and be not "partakers of her sins"! (Revelation 18:4b)

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The Bible speaks of individual 'Churches".

Acts 9:31 (KJV) Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Acts 15:41 (KJV) And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Acts 16:5 (KJV) And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Acts 19:37 (KJV) For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.

Romans 16:4 (KJV) Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

Romans 16:16 (KJV) Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

1 Corinthians 7:17 (KJV) But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

1 Corinthians 11:16 (KJV) But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:34 (KJV) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 16:1 (KJV) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

1 Corinthians 16:19 (KJV) The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

2 Corinthians 8:1 (KJV) Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

2 Corinthians 8:18 (KJV) And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

2 Corinthians 8:19 (KJV) And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

2 Corinthians 8:23 (KJV) Whether any do inquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be inquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

2 Corinthians 8:24 (KJV) Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.

2 Corinthians 11:8 (KJV) I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

2 Corinthians 11:28 (KJV) Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

2 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV) For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

Galatians 1:2 (KJV) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Galatians 1:22 (KJV) And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 (KJV) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

2 Thessalonians 1:4 (KJV) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Revelation 1:4 (KJV) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 1:11 (KJV) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:23 (KJV) And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 2:29 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:6 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:13 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:22 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Paul identifies more than one Church over and over. In more than one epistle, he uses the phrase "all the churches.

John, on the isle of Patmos wrote to seven Churches.

In Ephesians, Paul calls the body of Christ the Church. The Church is comprised of many members... many individual Churches.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I'll guarantee one thing: As long as I'm alive, the CAC will not be a part of or give support to the rise of any "superchurch"; we will do all we can to oppose same. We value individual liberty of conscience too much to surrender it to such a monstrosity; such a principle would have no place in this "temple of man" wielding absolute power.

 

[Wittenberger]

Galatians 4:26 does not state that the Church is our "mother". The apostle Paul is drawing from the history of Hagar being cast out of Abraham's home. Hagar answers to the covenant of law and to Jerusalem then in bondage; and Sarah to the covenant of promise and to Jerusalem above, which is free. The conclusion as to the believer is, `so then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free.' The Christian is not under the law nor in the flesh; but is free, under grace. Being the seed of Abraham according to promise, that is, being `of Christ,' or ` Christ's,' the gospel and new covenant blessings have come to believers through Him, and they are reckoned as of God's city, Jerusalem above, that is free. The church is of God's eternal counsel, heavenly, and is never in scripture called a "mother" (Concise Bible Dictionary. Addison: Bible Truth Publishers.).

The "allegory" begins at Galatians 4:21 and ends with verse 26:

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Galatians 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Church which was established by and founded upon Jesus Christ (Matthew 16:18) is NOT our "Mother", but that ONE church is HIS church and HIS Body! Jesus said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". The unity of the Body of Christ is based on Truth (unity of the Spirit):

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Ephesians 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The "Mother" that will be "reunited" will be the apostate church under the rule of Antichrist! Our prayer should be that those who are now seeking a false "ecumenical" unity will see the TRUTH and "Come out" from that "Mother" and be not "partakers of her sins"! (Revelation 18:4b)

It is amazing how far evangelicals will go to twist and contort the simple, literal Word of God so that it fits their doctrine!

The term "New Jerusalem" refers to the Bride of the Lamb in Revelations. If the "New Jerusalem" is Christ's bride in Revelations, and Christ's bride, all will agree, is the Church (whatever your definition of the Church may be), and the "New Jerusalem" in Galatians is referred to as our mother, then my evangelical friends...

the Church is our mother!

 

[Wittenberger]

The Bible speaks of individual 'Churches".

Acts 9:31 (KJV) Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Acts 15:41 (KJV) And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Acts 16:5 (KJV) And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Acts 19:37 (KJV) For ye have brought hither these men, which are neither robbers of churches, nor yet blasphemers of your goddess.

Romans 16:4 (KJV) Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

Romans 16:16 (KJV) Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

1 Corinthians 7:17 (KJV) But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

1 Corinthians 11:16 (KJV) But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:34 (KJV) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 16:1 (KJV) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

1 Corinthians 16:19 (KJV) The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

2 Corinthians 8:1 (KJV) Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

2 Corinthians 8:18 (KJV) And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

2 Corinthians 8:19 (KJV) And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

2 Corinthians 8:23 (KJV) Whether any do inquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be inquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

2 Corinthians 8:24 (KJV) Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.

2 Corinthians 11:8 (KJV) I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

2 Corinthians 11:28 (KJV) Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

2 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV) For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

Galatians 1:2 (KJV) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Galatians 1:22 (KJV) And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 (KJV) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

2 Thessalonians 1:4 (KJV) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Revelation 1:4 (KJV) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 1:11 (KJV) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:17 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:23 (KJV) And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 2:29 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:6 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:13 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3:22 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Paul identifies more than one Church over and over. In more than one epistle, he uses the phrase "all the churches.

John, on the isle of Patmos wrote to seven Churches.

In Ephesians, Paul calls the body of Christ the Church. The Church is comprised of many members... many individual Churches.

There is a big difference between scipture that discuss "the church" and scripture that discuss "the churches".

There is only one Church, there are many churches.