can Those professing Catholic Doctrines be saved?

[steaver]

The sacraments don't confer grace. The Holy Spirit confers grace through the sacraments, somewhat analogous to the way a hose carries water, and faith is necessary in them all.

And this is "another gospel". Luther saw the error in the RCC and protested. So, we have two very different gospels offered between the RCC version and those who preach the version of faith alone.

 

[Walter]

And this is "another gospel". Luther saw the error in the RCC and protested. So, we have two very different gospels offered between the RCC version and those who preach the version of faith alone.

Are you saying Luther thought that sacraments were not biblical?

 

[Walter]

Walter I was in the Catholic church for 20 years. I know what it taught. I have the Catechism and documents of Vatican II as well.

I don't appreciate you posting lies and misinformation.
I can take you to the Catechism and show where it teaches salvation by works.

BTW, baptismal regeneration is salvation by works, for baptism in and of itself is a work. Water does not save; it simply gets you wet.
"For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works" (Eph.2:8,9).

As has already been posted salvation is through keeping the sacraments.
Salvation is through going to mass on a regular basis and confession of your sins to a priest on a regular basis.
These are all works.
It is doubtful that (according to RCC theology) a person born into a Catholic family, but not baptized and as a teen and adult never goes to church would not go to heaven. The RCC does not know beans about salvation of the grace of God. I have talked to many of them. I was one of them. Biblical Salvation is not preached in the RCC.

And I don't appreciate you calling me a liar. Regardless of your seething hatred of Catholics, you really need to tone down the rhetoric. And no, you don't know what the Catholic Church teaches, I don't care how long you were a Catholic. You have a distorted view of what the Catholic Church teaches based on YOUR distorted interpretation of scripture. Your view of baptism, for example, was not believed by Christians until the time of the reformers. It is bogus and based on twisting scripture to say something it clearly doesn't say.

 

[steaver]

Are you saying Luther thought that sacraments were not biblical?

He realized they did not have anything to do with justification - he realized the just shall live by faith - not by sacraments.

 

[DHK]

And I don't appreciate you calling me a liar. Regardless of your seething hatred of Catholics, you really need to tone down the rhetoric. And no, you don't know what the Catholic Church teaches, I don't care how long you were a Catholic. You have a distorted view of what the Catholic Church teaches based on YOUR distorted interpretation of scripture. Your view of baptism, for example, was not believed by Christians until the time of the reformers. It is bogus and based on twisting scripture to say something it clearly doesn't say.

First of all remember that as a Catholic now, you are a guest on this board.

Second, realize this is a Baptist Board, and there is not a single Baptist who believes in your interpretation, which is a blasphemous interpretation of the Scripture. No man is saved through water or baptism; no man.

Third, instead of going to Scripture you have gone to the ECF which is typical of the RCC who don't use the Bible as their authority. Remember this that almost all heresy that entered Christianity came via the ECF.

Fourth, the true meaning of "what it means to be born again" did not begin at the Reformation, but long before that, and that is easily demonstrable. Your RCC teaching is heresy.

Fifth, my view of baptism, as the first commandment of obedience by the believer AFTER he comes to Christ, is taught by Scripture and was practiced by the earliest of believers. Infant baptism is unknown among early believers and was not practiced in the first three centuries. You are wrong with your facts and very confused theologically.

Your view on both baptism and what it means to be "born again" remains distorted.

 

[saturneptune]

First of all remember that as a Catholic now, you are a guest on this board.

Second, realize this is a Baptist Board, and there is not a single Baptist who believes in your interpretation, which is a blasphemous interpretation of the Scripture. No man is saved through water or baptism; no man.

Third, instead of going to Scripture you have gone to the ECF which is typical of the RCC who don't use the Bible as their authority. Remember this that almost all heresy that entered Christianity came via the ECF.

Fourth, the true meaning of "what it means to be born again" did not begin at the Reformation, but long before that, and that is easily demonstrable. Your RCC teaching is heresy.

Fifth, my view of baptism, as the first commandment of obedience by the believer AFTER he comes to Christ, is taught by Scripture and was practiced by the earliest of believers. Infant baptism is unknown among early believers and was not practiced in the first three centuries. You are wrong with your facts and very confused theologically.

Your view on both baptism and what it means to be "born again" remains distorted.

Of course I agree 100% with your five points. However, I was a Presbyterian at least as long as you were a Catholic. I became a Baptist because of baptism, elder rule, hierarchy, no flexibility on Calvinism, and other issues. Aside from baptism, the Presbyterian doctrine is sound in relation to salvation. There is no doubt in my mind there are many saved from that denomination. I just do not think we have the spiritual insight to know what the state is of all individuals of a certain group. I will agree that on a percentage basis, there are probably fewer Catholics saved than Presbyterians.

Yet, you know as a pastor, the spiritual state of our local church rolls. What percent of Baptists on church rolls do you think are saved?

 

[Melanie]

I so believe, as is stated in the Credo.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So, Walter, if Catholicism doesn't teach salvation by works, then why does the Council of Trent declare anyone who doesn't believe works are required, not only to earn salvation, but to keep their salvation, "anathema"?

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1)

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Why does the Catechism say in paragraph 2010:

The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC, par. 2010).

 

[KJVRICH]

That is where we get the sacraments, from the Bible. Check out my Post No. 18 and note that I don't quote anything but scripture. They are all there, you just don't want to believe it because you have always been taught to the contrary.

How do you know what I have "always" been taught??

FYI ....I was a catholic for 45 years. I have many years experience of listening to the false teaching of the RCC.

If you would like to know the truth, I would recommend taking your bible and very slowly and prayerfully read the New Testament, and all The while ask yourself.....is this what the catechism says ? Is this what is preached by the Catholic Church ?? For me it was an eye opening experience . If you ask God to reveal the truth to you...He will!

 

[steaver]

Third, instead of going to Scripture you have gone to the ECF which is typical of the RCC who don't use the Bible as their authority. Remember this that almost all heresy that entered Christianity came via the ECF.

.

Ravi Zacharias spoke on this topic of difference of doctrines between the RCC and the Protestants this week on his radio broadcast. It was a question from a student at a university he was speaking at. The short answer of his long one was we should read the bible ONLY for ourselves and ask ourselves if the held doctrines line up with the holy scriptures, APART from any other "proposed authority" whether it be another book, other writings, or another person.

 

[Walter]

So, Walter, if Catholicism doesn't teach salvation by works, then why does the Council of Trent declare anyone who doesn't believe works are required, not only to earn salvation, but to keep their salvation, "anathema"?



Why does the Catechism say in paragraph 2010:

There is a big difference between 'salvation by works' and the necessity of the existence of works in a person who is truly saved. The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema" (Session 6; can. 1).

The Council fathers continued by saying, "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (Session 6: can. 9).

 

[JohnDeereFan]

There is a big difference between 'salvation by works' and the necessity of the existence of works in a person who is truly saved.

Except that the Catholic sources I cited didn't say anything about "necessity of the existence of works in a person who is truly saved".

They say that if you believe you can be saved without good works, you're anathema.

The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works:

So, by your own admission (i.e. "grace and works"), Catholicism does teach that works are required for salvation.

The Council fathers continued by saying, "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (Session 6: can. 9).

Thus demonstrating that Catholicism teaches a works based salvation.

 

[DHK]

Yet, you know as a pastor, the spiritual state of our local church rolls. What percent of Baptists on church rolls do you think are saved?

There are different ways of looking at that question.
Theoretically none.
The definition of a Baptist church is:
An assembly of baptized, born again believers who have voluntarily associated themselves together for the purpose of carrying out the two ordinances of Christ (baptism by immersion and the Lord's Table), and obedience to the Great Commission.
By very definition one who is not saved is not a member of the church; he is automatically disqualified, whether by the church or by God.

Secondly we know that the problem existed in the first century.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
--The pretenders, after some time were easily detected. A true believer is faithful. A true believe has spiritual fruit.

Thirdly, we have many that are visitors to our church. Visitors are not members.
One can usually discern by their testimony (both with the pastor) and before the church, whether or not they are really saved. (This is when they apply for membership).
--Thus in our church, since it is small and we know the members very well, I doubt if there are any that are unsaved. But I can't speak for others. I don't know how well the administration works and how well the pastor oversees the church.

 

[DHK]

There is a big difference between 'salvation by works' and the necessity of the existence of works in a person who is truly saved. The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema" (Session 6; can. 1).

The Council fathers continued by saying, "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (Session 6: can. 9).

The Council of Trent was one of the most evil and wicked documents written by the hand of man. It condemned with a curse all those believing in the truth of Scripture, and its curses have never been rescinded.
Sola Scriptura.
Sola fide.
These great truths of the Bible taught from Scripture the RCC hates and has hated from its inception; it condemns with a curse. It curses all believers who believe in these great doctrines of the faith, which Jude tells us that we are to contend for.

 

[Yeshua1]

Except that the Catholic sources I cited didn't say anything about "necessity of the existence of works in a person who is truly saved".

They say that if you believe you can be saved without good works, you're anathema.



So, by your own admission (i.e. "grace and works"), Catholicism does teach that works are required for salvation.



Thus demonstrating that Catholicism teaches a works based salvation.

Problem for catholics is that the church reserves for itself, JUST as the Mormons/JW leadership does, the sole and authoritarian way to interprete the scriptures!