Can Unregenerate Man "Do" any Righteous Thing?

[R. Lawson]

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate.

-Charles Spurgeon, "Faith and Regeneration"

Brother Luke,

Would you mind showing us from Scripture where specifically regeneration precedes faith?:thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

I don't care if you quote ten thousand Cal/DoG scholars, if they say you must be regenerate before faith in Christ they are wrong. It is impossible to be spiritually alive and dead in trespasses and sins at the same moment.

You MUST believe on Jesus and have your sins forgiven before you can have spiritual life.

Therefore the unregenerate man must have the ability to believe the gospel.

It is has been proven to you a dozen times from the Word of God that regeneration precedes faith.

If you will commit to respond line by line to my posts I will prove it to you once again.

 

[webdog]

aaw. You mean like sarcasm.

No, because that was never the intention. When you receive a PM stating you serve another "god", that is not sarcasm.

 

[R. Lawson]

No, because that was never the intention. When you receive a PM stating you serve another "god", that is not sarcasm.

That's downright foolishness, Webdog. You're in good company, though. I've been called every name in the book by Arminians and Calvinists.:laugh:

 

[slave 4 Christ]

I saw that post. I didn't grasp the idea that regeneration precedes faith. I did see that the idea that man doesn't know where or how the Holy Spirit works (Holy Spirit being compared to a wind blowing wherever).

In John 2 these people "believed" but Jesus did not commit himself to them.

Why? Their faith was self-motivated, for self oriented reasons.

Now the logical question should be asked. What kind of belief is effective for salvation?

In John 3 Jesus gives the answer. You must be born again, (ie. regenerated or given new life) then you are made willing, that you may exercise genuine faith in Christ.

Notice the order, First new birth, generated by the Spirit, then Jesus gives the exposition about believing in Him. (see John 3:13-21)

Hence, regeneration precedes faith.

The Spirit's work is more than simple drawing or wooing, because Jesus said this work of the Spirit is the new birth.

 

[Winman]

It is has been proven to you a dozen times from the Word of God that regeneration precedes faith.

If you will commit to respond line by line to my posts I will prove it to you once again.

You have never proven your position, nor can you.

I can show you many verses that unmistakeably say you must believe to have life. You know them, I have shown you many times, but you stubbornly resist the truth.

 

[Jerome]

"How often, dear Brothers and Sisters, are you assailed, not only by the skeptic, but by our very profound doctrinal brethren? I know some very great doctrinal friends, who, because our experience may not tally with theirs, will sit down and say, “Ah, you don’t know the power of vital godliness.” And they will write very severe things against us and say that we don’t know the great secret, and don’t understand the inner life. You never need trouble yourself about these braggarts—let them talk on till they are finished. But if you do want to answer them, do it humbly by saying, “Well, you may be right and I may be mistaken, but yet I think I can say, ‘One thing I know, that whereas I was blind, now I see.’” And I have known them to sometimes go to the length of saying if we don’t hold all their points of Doctrine and go the whole 18 ounces to the pound, as they do—if we are content with 16 and keep to God’s weights and God’s measures—“Ah, those people cannot be truly converted Christians, they are not so high in Doctrine as we are.” Well, we can answer them with this, “One thing I know, that whereas I was blind, now I see.”" —Charles Spurgeon, "Simple But Sound"

 

[webdog]

If Acts 17:22-31 is teaching that unregenerate man can seek God then it is in direct contradiction with Romans 3:9-18.

There is no contradiction. When you see "as it is written", you need to go back and to see what is being referred to. Which Psalm was Paul referring to, and who were those from that Psalm who didn't seek God?

Please provide scripture for God giving tools to unregenerate man to seek Him.

Romans 1, Ecc. 3:11, Acts 17:26-27, Romans 2

Again, Romans 3:9-18 directly refutes this theory of "seeking" God.

Not when you put it into the context Paul intended. You can interpret the Bible through that one verse, or you can put that verse in context and let Bible explain Bible.

It is correct that man bears God's image, has conscience, and desires to be immortal, but nothing in scripture says that man will use these "tools" to seek God.

On the contrary man will use these "tools" to establish his own "way", hence so many false religions. (Romans 1:21-25)

Actually, that passage speaks of man rejecting the truth that has been given to him. They exchanged the truth God gave them for a lie, they had and knew the truth but they rejected it. To reject anything means the option of acceptance exists, or it's not rejection by definition.

As to this we are not far apart. Romans 17:26,27 teaches God "determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place". For what purpose?
To seek Him and find Him.

This is a glorious truth God determines the exact time and place we, who are sought, seek Him.

First, it's Acts, not Romans. Second, you added the "who are sought" to the truth of that passage. Who was Paul speaking to? Pagans, not the "elect". Some accepted the truth, some rejected it. If you claim they were all "elect" you have problems with those who rejected the truth.

Remember Paul is preaching to these people; therefore he gives an outward call to all listening (just as all Gospel preachers should) and leaves the inward or effectual call, all who hear, to God's Spirit.

Notice the response:
32Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, "We will hear you again about this." 33So Paul went out from their midst. 34But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Paul was giving truth to everyone who was there, not just those who accepted. The truth is each and everyone of them was placed in the exact location and place in time to seek God. There is no "perhaps reaching out and finding" God if your doctrine is correct. For Paul to say such would be foolishness if he is only speaking of the "elect".

Yes a person can seek God, but only after he is "born from above".

If a person has passed from spiritual death to spiritual life, they are in union with God. There is no need to "seek" someone you are in union with. If they have eternal life before seeking God, they would be saved apart from finding Him. That is not a biblical position to have.

 

[Jerome]

Southern Baptist Founders Journal contributing editor Timothy George, in his book Theology of the Reformers (Nashville: Broadman, 1988) p. 225:

This being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration which, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result

 

[InTheLight]

In John 2 these people "believed" but Jesus did not commit himself to them. Why? Their faith was self-motivated, for self oriented reasons.

What? In John 2 people saw the miracles that Jesus did and believed. Jesus did not commit himself to "hang around" with these people because he didn't need their testimony to go about his work.

There is nothing in John 2 that says Jesus rejected the belief of these people. He rejected the need for them to testify about him.

Now the logical question should be asked. What kind of belief is effective for salvation?

In John 3 Jesus gives the answer. You must be born again, (ie. regenerated or given new life) then you are made willing, that you may exercise genuine faith in Christ.

Notice the order, First new birth, generated by the Spirit, then Jesus gives the exposition about believing in Him. (see John 3:13-21)

Hence, regeneration precedes faith.

Look at your argument. It is full of 'therefore' and 'the next logical thing' and 'hence'. It's complicated and full of human reasoning. The gospel isn't that difficult.

In the case of Nicodemus, are you saying that he was regenerated? If so, he must have received the Holy Spirit, correct?

 

[Winman]

What? In John 2 people saw the miracles that Jesus did and believed. Jesus did not commit himself to "hang around" with these people because he didn't need their testimony to go about his work.

There is nothing in John 2 that says Jesus rejected the belief of these people. He rejected the need for them to testify about him.



Look at your argument. It is full of 'therefore' and 'the next logical thing' and 'hence'.

In the case of Nicodemus, are you saying that he was regenerated? If so, he must have received the Holy Spirit, correct?

Jesus simply told Nicodemus he must be born again to see(enter) heaven. This is absolutely true.

Jesus DID NOT say you must be born again to have faith. Luke reads that into the account, but it is not there.

You only have to read a few more verses to see that Jesus said THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

You have to believe before you have life, therefore the unregenerate MUST have the ability to believe.

 

[Luke2427]

You have never proven your position, nor can you.

I can show you many verses that unmistakeably say you must believe to have life. You know them, I have shown you many times, but you stubbornly resist the truth.

All you can do and have done is rape the Scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

The Bible clearly teaches that regeneration precedes faith as has been shown to you.

If you will commit to respond line by line to my posts I will prove it to you once more.

 

[webdog]

The Bible clearly teaches that regeneration precedes faith as has been shown to you.

If it's that clear, why do the majority of true believers not see it, and why has this debate been going on for centuries?

If you will commit to respond line by line to my posts I will prove it to you once more.

Just curious why you are requiring this. You have responded to many of my posts not in this fashion, but instead pulling all of my line by line responses into one quoted response, then replying to it as a whole.

 

[Winman]

All you can do and have done is rape the Scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

The Bible clearly teaches that regeneration precedes faith as has been shown to you.

If you will commit to respond line by line to my posts I will prove it to you once more.

I notice you never show these verses that support your position. I just showed where Jesus told Nicodemus THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

That is a very simple statement Luke, it says you must believe to have life. If you would take your blinders off you will easily understand it.

 

[R. Lawson]

If it's that clear, why do the majority of true believers not see it, and why has this debate been going on for centuries?
Just curious why you are requiring this. You have responded to many of my posts not in this fashion, but instead pulling all of my line by line responses into one quoted response, then replying to it as a whole.

It's clear, Webdog--clear as mud.:tongue3:

 

[Luke2427]

If it's that clear, why do the majority of true believers not see it, and why has this debate been going on for centuries?

There are all kinds of things that are very clear that have been debated for centuries.

The deity of Christ is another.

The Trinity is clear but it has been debated for nearly two thousand years.

Just curious why you are requiring this. You have responded to many of my posts not in this fashion, but instead pulling all of my line by line responses into one quoted response, then replying to it as a whole.

Because Winman is notorious for not responding to MOST of his "opponents" posts.

I think I do respond line by line to the vast majority of your posts, btw.

 

[webdog]

It's clear, Webdog--clear as mud.:tongue3:

Watch it, that will somehow be twisted to show how clear it really is, maybe that's why Jesus put mud on the blind person's eyes :laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

I notice you never show these verses that support your position. I just showed where Jesus told Nicodemus THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.

That is a very simple statement Luke, it says you must believe to have life. If you would take your blinders off you will easily understand it.

I have shown them to you numerous times before and will gladly do so again if you will commit to respond to my posts line by line.

What happens with you winman is we refute your positions and you never respond to our refutations.

You just disappear and come back in a day or so regurgitating the same crud that we have already shown to be false.

If you will stay in the pocket and respond line by line I will show you once again where the Bible clearly shows that regeneration precedes faith.

Just make the commitment and we'll get started.

 

[webdog]

There are all kinds of things that are very clear that have been debated for centuries.

The deity of Christ is another.

The Trinity is clear but it has been debated for nearly two thousand years.

I disagree that pre-faith regeneration is as clear as the trinity and the deity of Christ. True believers don't disagree on the latter two as there is clear Scripture on those topics, but the vast majority of true believers do not agree with you on pre-faith regeneration.

 

[Luke2427]

Watch it, that will somehow be twisted to show how clear it really is, maybe that's why Jesus put mud on the blind person's eyes :laugh:

We've been doing well, Webdog. It is this kind of snotty remark that causes trouble between you and I.

When we go to using laugh symbols as we laugh at each other as if the other is stupid and laughable- it causes problems.

Let's keep a positive streak going, huh?