Can Unregenerate Man "Do" any Righteous Thing?

[Winman]

Answer- First, saying that any statement by Jesus cannot be taken at face value is an incredible thing to say. That is practically calling Jesus a liar.

Your interpretation of John 3:36 is faulty, as all of us were in unbelief at one time, so this cannot mean someone who is in unbelief at the present cannot believe in the future.

No, this was the same conversation with Nicodemus and he used the same language as when he said "except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the the kingdom of God."

So, in John 3:36 Jesus is saying a person cannot have life until he believes.

As for 1 Pet 1, I simply understand this differently than you. I perfectly agree that no man can be saved without the assistance of the Holy Spirit. But I see what I would call "external grace" and "internal grace" for lack of terms.

To understand this, think of the Holy Spirit as a glass of water. This is a fair analogy as Jesus himself often compared the Spirit to water.

Let's say you are dying of thirst. I offer you a big glass of water. This is what I mean by external grace. I have given you what you need to save your life, but that alone will not save you. You must actually drink this water for it to help you. Once you drink this water, then this becomes internal grace and will actually save you.

And this is how Jesus compared his word, to water offered to you. But you must believe (drink) this water for it to save you.

John 4:14 But whosoever DRINKETH of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus offers everyone the water of life, this is grace. But only those that believe (drink) this water receive life.

Question- Can an unrighteous person have spiritual life?

 

[Gershom]

An act is righteous or unrighteous based on the motive.

It is a matter of the heart.

Adultery is sin but sex is not unrighteous if the motive is to love your spouse and render due benevolence.

Murder is sin but killing is not unrighteous if one does it to defend his country or family.

Idolatry is sin but worship is not unrighteous if it is directed to the one true God.

The act is not what is righteous or righteous; the motive is what makes it righteous or unrighteous.

The act of adultery is unrighteous. The act of intimacy with your wife is righteous. The act of murder is unrighteous. The act of killing to protect is righteous. Idolatry is an unrighteous act. Worshiping God is a righteous act. All true and all acts that can be performed by either the saved or the unsaved (with the latter being an exception).

An unsaved person can and does do what is righteous, for example, using your analogy, loving his wife and giving her due benevolence. Unsaved persons do that all the time (and their motive is right according to your thought).

 

[Gershom]

Would you say it is righteous in the eyes of a holy God?

I would say the ACT of feeding a hungry person is righteous in the eyes the holy God.

 

[Amy.G]

An unsaved person can and does do what is righteous, for example, using your analogy, loving his wife and giving her due benevolence. Unsaved persons do that all the time (and their motive is right according to your thought).

That is what I was trying to say earlier when I posted that in Romans we are told that God has given every man a conscience, knowing right from wrong. He knows it's wrong to beat your wife and it's right to love and respect her. Many unbelievers do right things.

But doing right things will not get you into the presence of God. An unbeliever may do good things, but he still has a sin account that must be paid, for the wages of sin is death. Jesus' blood is the only way to be washed clean of those sins and the debt that he owes. Without faith in Christ, he will meet God with a debt that has to be paid no matter how many good things he has done.

 

[The Archangel]

And he becomes spiritual when he is born again into the family of God.

Yes...except being born again (as John refers to it) is passive, meaning that it is something done to us (by God). It is not something that is done by us.

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

That is what I was trying to say earlier when I posted that in Romans we are told that God has given every man a conscience, knowing right from wrong. He knows it's wrong to beat your wife and it's right to love and respect her. Many unbelievers do right things.

But doing right things will not get you into the presence of God. An unbeliever may do good things, but he still has a sin account that must be paid, for the wages of sin is death. Jesus' blood is the only way to be washed clean of those sins and the debt that he owes. Without faith in Christ, he will meet God with a debt that has to be paid no matter how many good things he has done.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes...except being born again (as John refers to it) is passive, meaning that it is something done to us (by God). It is not something that is done by us.

The Archangel

So having the ability to reject God's grace is passive?

 

[The Archangel]

Well, in part, I would say it to be intuitive. Do I wrestle with some scriptures, yes of course, but all in all, I am very comfortable and confident with such a position. For me 'fairness" has little to do with it, but I do believe that God is Just.

I guess, my strongest motivator is the difference I have with Luke regarding God's primary "motivation" for me that being Love.

I wrestle with Scriptures, just as you do. I am curious as to what you mean by "to be intuitive." Can you explain that further?

You think that God's primary motivation is "Love?" Ok. But, is it His love for us or His love for Himself that is a primary motivation. (Note: I am not suggesting that God doesn't love us).

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

So having the ability to reject God's grace is passive?

I didn't say that.

What I am saying is that in John 3, when Jesus repeatedly tells Nicodemus "you must be born again" Jesus is not giving Nicodemus an imperative--as in this is something Nicodemus must do himself.

Rather, the Greek verb is passive--which means the subject is acted upon. With the passive, the subject, in this case Nicodemus, cannot act upon himself; he must be acted upon.

But that phrase "you must be born again" does not have any ability to accept or reject in view (because it is passive).

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

I wrestle with Scriptures, just as you do. I am curious as to what you mean by "to be intuitive." Can you explain that further.

You think that God's primary motivation is "Love?" Ok. But, is it His love for us or His love for Himself that is a primary motivation. (Note: I am not suggesting that God doesn't love us).

Blessings,

The Archangel

Love for all of His creation. I am a little confounded as to "why" God might need to Love Himself. Does not seem to me to be a necessary thing for our "omni" God.

Most would say, and I think correctly, Mankind is the pinnacle of his creation being that we are made in "his image" so I deduce that he has a particularly deep love (anthro I know, but best I can do) for mankind.

By "intuitively" I simply mean a conviction of confirmation by the Holy spirit

 

[Winman]

That is what I was trying to say earlier when I posted that in Romans we are told that God has given every man a conscience, knowing right from wrong. He knows it's wrong to beat your wife and it's right to love and respect her. Many unbelievers do right things.

But doing right things will not get you into the presence of God. An unbeliever may do good things, but he still has a sin account that must be paid, for the wages of sin is death. Jesus' blood is the only way to be washed clean of those sins and the debt that he owes. Without faith in Christ, he will meet God with a debt that has to be paid no matter how many good things he has done.

I agree with this, the scriptures say man has a conscience, in fact I believe this is what man obtained when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is what distinguishes us from animals, they have no sense or understanding of what right and wrong is.

Conscience by definition means all men have a sense of what is right and wrong and are pulled or tugged to do what is right. Look it up in the dictionary.

And Amy is also correct in that whatever good man might do is not the problem, sin is our problem. No matter how much good a man might do, he still has to pay for his sins, and the wages of sin is death.

So saying man can do some good in no way implies he can earn salvation.

 

[The Archangel]

Love for all of His creation. I am a little confounded as to "why" God might need to Love Himself. Does not seem to me to be a necessary thing for our "omni" God.

I would like to suggest you read this: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/is-god-for-us-or-for-himself

It is easier for me to post this link than explain the whole thing myself.

Most would say, and I think correctly, Mankind is the pinnacle of his creation being that we are made in "his image" so I deduce that he has a particularly deep love (anthro I know, but best I can do) for mankind.

By "intuitively" I simply mean a conviction of confirmation by the Holy spirit

I would agree that God has a deep love for mankind. I just don't think mankind is primary in His affections; He Himself is.

Also...I'm still having a very difficult time trying to understand how the concept of "to be intuitive" or any talk of "intuitive" relates to the question: Why do you believe "the role of the Holy Spirit is to bring conviction upon men who then freely respond to this conviction."

I guess I'm misunderstanding your original statement. I think I could ask my question better by saying: Why do you believe (or even do you believe) that all men (mankind) must be given the same and equal chance to respond to God? If so, is that belief based on "fairness" of some kind?

That's what I'm asking, I think.

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

I would like to suggest you read this: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/is-god-for-us-or-for-himself

It is easier for me to post this link than explain the whole thing myself.



I would agree that God has a deep love for mankind. I just don't think mankind is primary in His affections; He Himself is.

Also...I'm still having a very difficult time trying to understand how the concept of "to be intuitive" or any talk of "intuitive" relates to the question: Why do you believe "the role of the Holy Spirit is to bring conviction upon men who then freely respond to this conviction."

I guess I'm misunderstanding your original statement. I think I could ask my question better by saying: Why do you believe (or even do you believe) that all men (mankind) must be given the same and equal chance to respond to God? If so, is that belief based on "fairness" of some kind?

That's what I'm asking, I think.

The Archangel

I will have to ponder this a bit. But yes I do believe that all men are offered the saving grace of God. I am convinced that many societies and cultures have and continue to ignore this grace, at great and lasting consequence to themselves and their posterity. I am humbled tremenduously by the fact that I have been exposed to God's Word and having been reared in such a family that emphasized the need for having a relationship with God.

I have many (multitudes) of unanswered, perhaps unanswerable questions, but digging for the answers often proves fruitful sometimes in unexpected ways

 

[Winman]

I would like to suggest you read this: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/is-god-for-us-or-for-himself

It is easier for me to post this link than explain the whole thing myself.



I would agree that God has a deep love for mankind. I just don't think mankind is primary in His affections; He Himself is.

Also...I'm still having a very difficult time trying to understand how the concept of "to be intuitive" or any talk of "intuitive" relates to the question: Why do you believe "the role of the Holy Spirit is to bring conviction upon men who then freely respond to this conviction."

I guess I'm misunderstanding your original statement. I think I could ask my question better by saying: Why do you believe (or even do you believe) that all men (mankind) must be given the same and equal chance to respond to God? If so, is that belief based on "fairness" of some kind?

That's what I'm asking, I think.

The Archangel

I can't believe that you and Luke believe God's greatest motive is to love himself.

This is nothing but pure SELFISHNESS, easily the most evil and destructive character trait any person can have.

Being utterly self-centered and selfish describes Satan, not God.

Incredible!!

 

[Luke2427]

The act of adultery is unrighteous. The act of intimacy with your wife is righteous. The act of murder is unrighteous. The act of killing to protect is righteous. Idolatry is an unrighteous act. Worshiping God is a righteous act. All true and all acts that can be performed by either the saved or the unsaved (with the latter being an exception).

An unsaved person can and does do what is righteous, for example, using your analogy, loving his wife and giving her due benevolence. Unsaved persons do that all the time (and their motive is right according to your thought).

No. What makes the difference between murder and defense of country or family is motive.

What makes the difference between adultery and due benevolence is motive.

I gave you Bible.

Is that not enough?

It is from the HEART that wicked deeds arise. It is a matter of motive.

The reason adultery is sin is because the motive is not pure. The only way for sex to be pure is for the motive to be to love one's spouse and satisfy those needs in a marital relationship.

Whenever that is the motive sex is not sin.

When the motive is to simply satisfy the flesh it is adultery.

God's Word says that sin comes from the heart- it is not about the act, it is about the motive.

Motive is what makes murder murder.

Motive is what makes sex adultery.

This is what Christ said clearly.

 

[Luke2427]

I can't believe that you and Luke believe God's greatest motive is to love himself.

This is nothing but pure SELFISHNESS, easily the most evil and destructive character trait any person can have.

Being utterly self-centered and selfish describes Satan, not God.

Incredible!!

I cannot believe that you think God worships man.

You would have God be an idolater.

God MUST love himself supremely because he alone is WORTHY to be loved supremely.

 

[Luke2427]

I would say the ACT of feeding a hungry person is righteous in the eyes the holy God.

The Bible says differently.

The Bible says that in the flesh dwells no good thing and a corrupt tree (sinner) CANNOT bring forth good fruit.


The Bible says that there is NONE that doeth good- no not one.

 

[Gershom]

I gave you Bible.

Is that not enough?

You gave me your own understanding of the Bible. I will catch up with you tomorrow. It's late now. Have a good night.

 

[Winman]

I cannot believe that you think God worships man.

You would have God be an idolater.

God MUST love himself supremely because he alone is WORTHY to be loved supremely.

Jesus didn't spend all his time looking in the mirror loving and worshipping himself, he gave his very life to save us.

We are to be like God. If your doctrine were true that would mean we should utterly love ourselves, exactly the opposite of what the scriptures teach.

You are waaaaay off on this.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

I can't believe that you and Luke believe God's greatest motive is to love himself.

Put me in the group too.