can we agree on this?

Are you presuming then that God doesn't have foreknowledge?

They don't know His LAWS -- but Rom 1 tells us that is NOT a prerequisite, not an EXCUSE.

PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.[/quote] That is an interpretation of scripture, not a recitation of it. Basically, David was saying "I was born in the flesh and of flesh I came.

Oh really. Speak lies when they can't even speak? Gimme a break, john. Again, this speaks of the "way of all flesh."

I think you understand the concept here -- "in Adam all die [physically]." That doesn't mean that they die spiritually. Christ is our spiritual head and according as His innocence, innocence is not condemned to spiritual death, is it.

skypair

 

skypair.

PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

It is you that doesn't know God's character. JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.

JOB 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.

Innocence cuts no ice with God, "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...".

Of course. Where are these fabled innocent beings, off with the unicorns I suppose? PS 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

You write as one who guesses badly, why don't you study scripture for a while and learn what the bible has to say? You have no warrant to declare all children saved because the scriptures declares no such thing.

He says nothing of age nor does He view ignorance of God's word as a valid excuse for us. Again your theology ignores the word of God and you preach things not spoken of in the bible.

You're the one presuming. God chose to hate Esau before he had done anything and this proves God commits whoever He wants to Hell just because. Do you say Paul did not think He has foreknowledge? (That is if you want to use the word in this way.) It says it quite clearly for those who have eyes to see, "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad...", doesn't it? Explain your question to me.

This is what I mean about you not knowing the bible isn't it? Not a prerequisite for what, salvation? Not an excuse for what? Suppression of the knowledge of God is universal with us and normal and God calls His sheep through the preaching of the word, He doesn't call anyone any other way. Fact: RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

I can't see much of an interpretation from me can you? Just read the scripture.
PS 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
God creates all men bad.

What happens to kids then, does God foreknow they would have had faith if He had let them live a bit longer?

As you say, "It's the way of all flesh from the womb."

The Devil's lie. All men are conceived spiritually dead and are condemned in Adam. Condemnation is the judgement on all and only in Christ is it removed. The scripture tells you that Adam and Eve died the moment they touched the tree.
Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

I've no idea what you are saying.

john.

 

That's the second time I've done that to you Brutus I do apologise.

Nice to meet you.

john.

 

Truth

Luke 13
Repent or Perish
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

We are all going to die, but to die without Jesus is a shame.

If I died as an infant, because my mother made a wrong choice to run a red light and I die before repentance, God knows what my life will be like as if that accident never happened.

We can't even comprehend all that God knows, but if we do not repent in the same way we will also perish.

We need to distiquish what God has given us the power to change and what we cannot change and pray to God to know the difference between the two.

I will never question God , but I know He is all the things you say He is to His nature, but He is also just. We cannot lift any other characteristics of God higher than Him beingjust, nor lift Him being just over His other characterics. God has given me the same hope He has given to the world and made us who believe His messengers.

 

He gives no hope to the world. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. You are in error Psalms. John 17:9.

john.

 

Why should those who agree with this have any problem with election? If one believes that God would be perfectly just in sending everyone to hell, as all deserve, and have earned, hell, then why is there such a big problem with God granting mercy to some when no one deserves it, nor is entitled to it in the least?

 

condemned

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

I know who the Father has given to Jesus, it is pretty simple a child can understand.

 

I guess I've met my match -- NOT! Job was GROWN UP. Tell me how an infant is going to defend his own innocence.

Your ignorance is showing -- "The soul that sinneth, IT shall surely die." Oh? YOu mean one minute it was alive and the next it was DEAD? This and others don't play very well in your hands, do they?

I didn't call them "saved," You assumed I did. But they are merely "just" and that NOT with the righteousness of God.

You must be used to your church declaring infants "elect." Why do you doubt that I can discern that they are "innoncent?" The warrant is this -- there is a resurrection of the JUST, those made "just"/righteous by faith in God and those who are "just" by reason of innocence. They are raised into the kingdom of Messiah postrib (which you also do not believe in, right?). Isa 49:20-23. The innocent will have opportunity both to sin and to repent there.

I prefer to say condemned LIKE Adam -- when they eat the forbidden fruit of SIN. Dispensationally, we all come into the world as Adams -- innocent. The "moment of truth," as with Adam, is when our consciences tell us we have sinned. From there sin compounds -- comes in various venues.


skypair

 

Cite a single verse SP , where infants are designated innocent . .... ... What ? There is no verse ! Well then , eradicate that false notion from your theology .

 

Rippon, Brutus

My, y'all are up early! :wavey:

First off, ADAM came into this world innocent -- and so did Eve. Second, Ezek 18:20. Deal with THAT. While you are there, deal with Ezek 18:4 -- "...the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die." What, the soul was innocent until it sinned?

How about Rom 7:9 -- "I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." Oh, really, Paul? So your spirit was alive until the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the law. Do tell! And so you died spiritually then? Well, that makes sense!! Kinda like Adam then, eh? One sin and you died. Wow!

Isa 49:20-23 is my best proof. Did you bother to look it up? "Whose children are these?" Do you think God said all were without excuse in knowing of Him (Rom 1) but that excluded infants who could know nothing? Do you think they justly deserve a first chance to believe?

I realize this is Theology 301, not 101. I realize that Calvin never went to seminary too! :laugh: So maybe you should mull these things over before replying.

skypair

 

skypair.

Just going "goo goo" does it for you skypair why not God? I'll spell it out for you. Job said, "Even if I was innocent I would still need God's mercy."
If you can figure out the implications of this then good. If you can't then good. Whatever pleases the Lord is good with me. I'll remind you of what was said: It is you that doesn't know God's character. JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.

Mercy is moved by nothing but God's will.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."​

Where does God demand a child defend itself? It would be better to keep one's mouth shut, JOB 9:20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
Why would Job say such a thing? I know why. Job knew God judged us guilty before we had done right or wrong.

Better not go round sinnething then a? What you say skypair? Dealt with.

I do not attend a Calvinist Church.

Calvinists can believe their children are saved, and they should, because scripture is explicit on the point.

I do not doubt I know. You have discerned children to be just and innocent even when the scripture says 'surely' I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Where does your discernment come from, it isn't from God is it?

JOB 9:15 Though I were innocent, I could not answer him; I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.

Wrong then are you not, innocence doesn't cut it with God in judgement? Scripture denies innocence is an excuse you must accept Job.

The Devil's lie. You will not surely die. Poetry that is.

So the born again thing is really a dead again thing?

Nor did Jesus.

john.

 

Hello Psalms.

He gives no hope to the world. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. You are in error Psalms. John 17:9.

Would you like to respond to this verse?

john.

 

Given to Jesus

The truth with scripture is the Father has given to Jesus the humble and meek, who trust in the name of Jesus and hidden the truth from the wise and learned and revealed the truth to little children.

So simple a child can understand.

 

Hello Psalms.

Cool but I am 57 and need more help. I am having problems understanding your posts not God's revelation, did you answer my question?
I see you are saying that God doesn't let everyone know about Him.
I see that you have linked 'humble and meek' with 'little children'. Does this mean that all little children are saved with knowledge of God's will and at some point they become not humble and not meek and not saved?

john.