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can we loose salvation ......
- Thread starter soninme
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soninme said:
Yes you can lose salvation if you throw it away, of your own free will.
Requirements for salvation involve belief in Jesus (and all that implies) and repentance of sin. You must be trying to not sin.
If a person did believe in Jesus at one time, and then he stopped believing in Jesus, then the scripture says he will lose his salvation.
Heb.10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb.10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
From those scripture you see, if you draw back from your faith you go into perdition.
Salvation is by grace through faith. If you don't have the faith anymore because you stopped believing then you don't have the grace anymore and you are not saved anymore.
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
If you have ceased to try to not sin, you are not repented anymore and you can lose your salvation.
1John3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1John3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1John5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Sinneth and committeth are words that indicate deliberately practicing sin without trying to stop it. If you are deliberately practicing it without trying to stop it, then you are not repented anymore.
Jesus stated the essentials:
Mark1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mark1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
If you are walking in the Spirit and not after the flesh, there is now no condemnation to you like Paul says, and you can't lose your salvation.
Romans8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
A person that starts deliberately sinning, without trying to stop it, is not walking in the Spirit anymore, and is not repented anymore. He is throwing his salvation away. It is not like he lost it and is trying to find it. He is THROWING IT AWAY.
Repenting:
[Keep on trying to not sin. If you do sin, confess it to God in prayer and ask Him to forgive you in accordance with 1John 1:9. -then keep on trying to not sin. Trying to not do anything the New Testament calls a sin.]
Jesus said no man can take the saved out of His Farther's hand. That is true. But they can by choice jump out of the Father's hand of their own free will.
John10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
John10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
You don't earn your salvation by doing good works. Repenting is trying to NOT DO bad works.
2Peter2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Peter2:21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Peter2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hebrews10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
If you're living in sin, you have fallen from grace.
Romans6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
rom6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Romans6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
You see where it says, "whether of sin unto death".
The new testament is a covenant. It is an agreement between two parties; you and God. Just like in the Old covenant if the people did not fulfill their end of the agreement, then God changed from blessing the people to punishing them. Your end of the agreement is belief in Jesus and repentance of sin. You begin failing to fulfill your end of the agreement and God changes from blessing to punishment.
Jesus Himself showed you could lose salvation in the parable of the sower and the see. The seed that fell on stoney places.
Mark4:5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
Mark4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
Mark4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mark4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
That is referring to Christians that stay Christians for awhile and then fall away from the faith.
In the parable, the only seed that brought forth fruit is the seed that fell on the good ground.
Jesus makes it clear; all trees that don't bear fruit will be cut down.
Luke13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luke13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
ETERNAL SECURITY
Dr. Hank Lindstrom
Can a person who has been saved lose his salvation? This question has been a perplexing question to many. Maybe you have been questioning the genuineness of your salvation. Are you really saved? Are you really sure?
Although the phrase "eternal security" does not occur in the Bible, phrases that are equivalent do occur. Phrases such as everlasting life, eternal life, eternal salvation, eternal inheritance, eternal redemption, etc. occur dozens and dozens of times throughout the Bible.
Eternal security is not a separate doctrine from that of eternal life or eternal salvation. It is one and the same. In fact, the only salvation God offers to mankind is eternal. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16)."
God does not offer probation, but He offers salvation. God does not offer a trial period, but rather, offers to completely save and give eternal life to anyone who responds to His invitation to trust Jesus Christ as his or her only hope of heaven.
Consider the alternative, that you could lose your salvation. By virtue of the fact that you could lose it, would mean that keeping salvation would depend upon your efforts or actions to keep it. In other words, a person who says that he can lose his salvation for whatever reason is in reality saying that he is trusting in human works to save him. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace (mercy) are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Salvation is not of works and therefore a person who is trusting in his works is not and will not be saved. What are we saying? Plainly stated: a person who says he can lose his salvation is not saved. Or he is thoroughly confused and lacks assurance of salvation.
If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved. Let me say it again. If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved.
Salvation, as taught in the Bible, is a present possession, received at the time of the new birth or acceptance of Christ as one's personal Savior, and is kept secure or eternal by God's power. Consider such references as John 3:16; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 10:28; Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 10:14; I Peter 1:4-5.
Jesus Christ made the promise in John 6:37 that He would never cast out anyone who had trusted Him as Savior for any reason. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out." He meant exactly that. There is no circumstance or instance that would cause Christ to cast a saved person aside.
Some have said to me, "Okay, Christ won't cast me out, but I can cast myself out." This is impossible. Read with me John 6:39 where Jesus said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that all which he hath given, I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day." Jesus promises that He will never lose anyone who has come to him for salvation and that this is the Father's will.
If any one saved person were ever lost, then Jesus Christ would be a liar because, He said in John 6:39 that He would not lose one. If just one saved person in all of history were lost, then Jesus Christ would be a liar.
Praise the Lord that Jesus Christ is a Savior who will deliver on what He has promised. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (possesses now) eternal life (John 6:47)." Jesus Christ promises eternal life as a present possession to all those who believe (trust) in Him.
The heart of all the misunderstanding concerning this subject is the fact that human works or merit have zero to do with salvation. Many Scriptures make it so clear that we are saved by faith and not by works. For example: John 3:18; Romans 3:24-28; Romans 4;5; Ephesians 2:8-9 and so on.
In addition to this, there are many clear Scriptures which teach that anyone who is trusting in works (church membership, baptism, confirmation, living the Christian life, etc.) in addition to faith in Christ will not be saved (Romans 11:6; and Galatians 5:2-4). Thus we are to trust in Christ only to be saved.
The work of salvation was finished on the cross by Jesus Christ himself (Hebrews 1:3). If we want to be saved, then we must believe that Jesus Christ finished the work of salvation on the cross, and receive it as God's free gift (Romans 6:23).
"I know that whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him (Ecclesiastes 3:14)." (See also Romans 8:38-39.)
After we are saved, we should live for Christ out of love and gratitude for all He has done for us. We will be rewarded for faithful service or suffer the loss of rewards for not serving the Lord, but we will be eternally saved (Corinthians 3:11-15). Also, if we live in rebellion we will still be saved, but God will chasten us in this life and might take us home to heaven prematurely. (See Hebrews 12:6-8; Corinthians 11:30-32.)
Salvation is by grace through faith. It is a free gift, and is wholly without works (Romans 3:27-28; 4:1-8; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9). The divine order is first salvation, then works (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5-8).
"Blessed Assurance" is a favorite hymn of many who claim to be saved. But it is only wishful thinking to those who believe they can be saved today and lost tomorrow.
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:38-39)." A saved person can know and be absolutely assured of his or her salvation. Nothing can undo what God has finished (Ecclesiastes 3:14).
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life (I John 5:13)."
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Bibleline/Article.asp?article_id=1130
Dr. Hank Lindstrom
Can a person who has been saved lose his salvation? This question has been a perplexing question to many. Maybe you have been questioning the genuineness of your salvation. Are you really saved? Are you really sure?
Although the phrase "eternal security" does not occur in the Bible, phrases that are equivalent do occur. Phrases such as everlasting life, eternal life, eternal salvation, eternal inheritance, eternal redemption, etc. occur dozens and dozens of times throughout the Bible.
Eternal security is not a separate doctrine from that of eternal life or eternal salvation. It is one and the same. In fact, the only salvation God offers to mankind is eternal. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16)."
God does not offer probation, but He offers salvation. God does not offer a trial period, but rather, offers to completely save and give eternal life to anyone who responds to His invitation to trust Jesus Christ as his or her only hope of heaven.
Consider the alternative, that you could lose your salvation. By virtue of the fact that you could lose it, would mean that keeping salvation would depend upon your efforts or actions to keep it. In other words, a person who says that he can lose his salvation for whatever reason is in reality saying that he is trusting in human works to save him. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace (mercy) are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Salvation is not of works and therefore a person who is trusting in his works is not and will not be saved. What are we saying? Plainly stated: a person who says he can lose his salvation is not saved. Or he is thoroughly confused and lacks assurance of salvation.
If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved. Let me say it again. If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved.
Salvation, as taught in the Bible, is a present possession, received at the time of the new birth or acceptance of Christ as one's personal Savior, and is kept secure or eternal by God's power. Consider such references as John 3:16; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 10:28; Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 10:14; I Peter 1:4-5.
Jesus Christ made the promise in John 6:37 that He would never cast out anyone who had trusted Him as Savior for any reason. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out." He meant exactly that. There is no circumstance or instance that would cause Christ to cast a saved person aside.
Some have said to me, "Okay, Christ won't cast me out, but I can cast myself out." This is impossible. Read with me John 6:39 where Jesus said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that all which he hath given, I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day." Jesus promises that He will never lose anyone who has come to him for salvation and that this is the Father's will.
If any one saved person were ever lost, then Jesus Christ would be a liar because, He said in John 6:39 that He would not lose one. If just one saved person in all of history were lost, then Jesus Christ would be a liar.
Praise the Lord that Jesus Christ is a Savior who will deliver on what He has promised. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (possesses now) eternal life (John 6:47)." Jesus Christ promises eternal life as a present possession to all those who believe (trust) in Him.
The heart of all the misunderstanding concerning this subject is the fact that human works or merit have zero to do with salvation. Many Scriptures make it so clear that we are saved by faith and not by works. For example: John 3:18; Romans 3:24-28; Romans 4;5; Ephesians 2:8-9 and so on.
In addition to this, there are many clear Scriptures which teach that anyone who is trusting in works (church membership, baptism, confirmation, living the Christian life, etc.) in addition to faith in Christ will not be saved (Romans 11:6; and Galatians 5:2-4). Thus we are to trust in Christ only to be saved.
The work of salvation was finished on the cross by Jesus Christ himself (Hebrews 1:3). If we want to be saved, then we must believe that Jesus Christ finished the work of salvation on the cross, and receive it as God's free gift (Romans 6:23).
"I know that whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him (Ecclesiastes 3:14)." (See also Romans 8:38-39.)
After we are saved, we should live for Christ out of love and gratitude for all He has done for us. We will be rewarded for faithful service or suffer the loss of rewards for not serving the Lord, but we will be eternally saved (Corinthians 3:11-15). Also, if we live in rebellion we will still be saved, but God will chasten us in this life and might take us home to heaven prematurely. (See Hebrews 12:6-8; Corinthians 11:30-32.)
Salvation is by grace through faith. It is a free gift, and is wholly without works (Romans 3:27-28; 4:1-8; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9). The divine order is first salvation, then works (Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5-8).
"Blessed Assurance" is a favorite hymn of many who claim to be saved. But it is only wishful thinking to those who believe they can be saved today and lost tomorrow.
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:38-39)." A saved person can know and be absolutely assured of his or her salvation. Nothing can undo what God has finished (Ecclesiastes 3:14).
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life (I John 5:13)."
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Bibleline/Article.asp?article_id=1130
JerryL said:
More scriptures showing you can lose salvation.
In galatians chapters 2,3,4,5 it shows how the galatians had started to walk in Christ and got saved, then they desired to go back into observing the Jewish law, and Paul warned them that if they do that they would fall from grace and Christ would not profit them at all; they would not be saved anymore.
The following scriptures show how someone that is once saved can fall from grace and lose salvation.
Galatians2;21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Galatians5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Galatians5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Galatians5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
It is stated in Ephesians 2:8,9, by grace you are saved, throught faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
You are saved by grace. If you fall from grace, then you are no longer saved.
Romans11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
The mistake of the Galatians is that after they were saved by grace through faith in Jesus, they then started to go back into the Jewish law and tried to rely on the works of the law for salvation. According to what Paul said in Romans 11:6, if it is of works, then is it no more grace. So going back to try to rely on the works of the law for salvation caused them to fall from grace.
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
If you have a child, that child will always be yours...whether he turns out good or bad.
Why should we expect less from our Heavenly Father?
Why should we expect less from our Heavenly Father?
Yes but if that child turns out bad I will write him out of my will, i.e.,deprive him of his inheritance. Frankly I think this goes a long way toward encouraging children to be good. So it is with out Heavenly Father--fear of going to hell is an effective deterrent to bad behavior, i.e., sin.I Am Blessed 17 said:
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"My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20.
Here we have a man living in the truth (saved). He strays from the truth and becomes lost. How can the OSAS advocates ignore this? I know there are many who only appear saved but here we have one who really is saved. You cannot stray from the truth if you never were in the truth.
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." James 5:19-20.
Here we have a man living in the truth (saved). He strays from the truth and becomes lost. How can the OSAS advocates ignore this? I know there are many who only appear saved but here we have one who really is saved. You cannot stray from the truth if you never were in the truth.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I Am Blessed 17 said:
And so Adam is called "the son of God" in the Gospels indicating the fact that God was his father from birth - a member of the family of God. Even when Adam fell God still loved him - he was still God's "child" - but he was under "real" condemnation and was in 'real' need of 'real' salvation -- he needed a savior - "for real".
This is also true of the case with the servant in Matt 18 - he is "really forgiven' and then later "really has forgiveness revoked" in that story. The real warning is then given to Christ's disciples "SO shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".
in Christ,
Bob
Gal 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.BobRyan said:
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
There is nothing in this portion of scripture which says you have been severed. It is not even implied. The phrase "fall from grace" means to turn away from the grace, liberty and freedom that we have because of our faith in Christ, which has resulted in salvation, and instead turn back to obedience to the whole law, which Paul says will "profit you nothing."
"Fall from grace" does not mean loss of salvation, but loss of freedom.
Adam and Eve were God's children, were always God's children, and never stopped being God's children. They were never lost; never unsaved; and never in need of a Saviour, for they never were lost in the first place. What they lost was not their salvation but their fellowship with God. When one sins (i.e., a believer) they lose their fellowship with God, not their salvation; and so it was with Adam and Eve. God restored them to fellowship (not salvation) with the shedding of the blood of an animal sacrifice, from which he made coats of skins.BobRyan said:
You habitually use this parable, where Jesus teaches forgiveness, to try to force your own doctrine out of this parable. It goes against the principles of good hermeneutics to try and teach doctrine from parables, that is not taught elsewhere. That is what you do with this parable. The parable only illustrates doctrine already taught. Jesus isn't inventing your new doctrine that you are trying to force on us here. That is not what the parable teaches.
In fact in all the Bible there is no such doctrine as "forgiveness revoked."
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
I would never stop loving (or turn my back on) any of my children no matter what they did. I can stand by them without standing up for their behavior. Just like my Heavenly Father does for me.
I did not come to Jesus out of fear of hell. Jesus won me with His love and that's how He will keep me.
We can lose fellowship with God and we can lose the 'joy of our salvation', but we cannot lose our salvation.
If I could lose my salvation, that would mean that Jesus died on the cross in vain.
CarpentersApprentice
New Member
CarpentersApprentice
New Member
These are Baptists. These are well established groups of Baptists. These Baptists have Scripture to back-up their position.
On what basis can we hold that they are in error?
CA
On what basis can we hold that they are in error?
CA
CarpentersApprentice
New Member
DHK said:
OK, but what standard do we use to tell who is sincerely right and who is sincerely wrong?
CA
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