can we loose salvation ......

[CarpentersApprentice]

I don't know. I doubt it. I haven't read all their writings. I am not an authority on the ECF. I tend to avoid them. I prefer the inspired writings of the Lord, the Apostles, and the Prophets, summarily called the Bible.

Which of the earliest Christians, after 100AD, would be considered the most reliable interpreters of the Bible?

CA

 

[DHK]

Which of the earliest Christians, after 100AD, would be considered the most reliable interpreters of the Bible?
CA

"The Lord knows them that are His."
In every age since Christ and the Apostles there have been true believers interpreting the Bible much like we do today. They may not have had a lot of fame or have been distinguished, or have written many books, but God knows his own. Many of the most spiritual believers, most Godly men and women are those who have left us a trail of blood.

 

[BobRyan]

"Forgiveness revoked" is a false doctrine not taught in Scripture

Now Let's see what Christ had to say - by contrast --

Matt 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared[/b] to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Question for the unbiased objective reader -- how determined are you to hold on to these Words of Christ -- as "truth" vs man-made opinions?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK,

You say "Forgive revoked" is a dangerous, and you saying of Matthew chapter 18 is a parable. I ask you, what is the PURPOSE of Matthew chapter 18 on 'forgive'? Whose of Matthew chapter 18 apply to?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

This is a good question for two reasons.

1. In the parable itself the entire point is "forgiveness revoked" for one TRULY forgiven who then refuses to forgive others.

2. AFTER the parable concludes Christ ADDs these words "SO shall My Father to do each one of you If YOU do not forgive your brother from your heart" --

the meaning is "crystal clear" to the unbiased objective reader.

Simply looking at the text and shaking your head saying "I don't believe it -- I just don't believe it" does not change the parable, does not change the application of that parable in the Words of Christ at the end of the chapter.

Let the reader take the Words of Christ seriously here -- it is meant to be read and accepted - not read and ignored.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Matthew 18 Jesus was teaching us to forgive one anothers trespasses not wilful sins such as adultry, lying, stealing, etc. We nor the Church can forgive wilful sins such as these, thats why he summed it up that if a man was stubborn and would not hear the offended alone, and then with witnesses, nor the Church the he manifested he has not been born again. And would be cast out. We can and should forgive each other for offending us, but we cannot forgive wilful sins. Thats why there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.

1. There is no mention at all of "not having been born again" in this chapter -- at least not from Christ.

2. The ENTIRE POINT of the illustration is NOT of the form "well wicked slave - I did not REALLY forgive you to start with so you had no basis at all to forgive your fellow servant - you were merely doing to others what I had already done to you by NOT really forgiving you in the first place."

Such an argument inserted eisegetically into the text would destroy the entire sense of the text. It simply can not be done and preserve exegesis.

3. The entire argument is made based on "I REALLY DID forgive you so now you have no excuse at all for not forgiving others who sin against you JUST AS I forgave you".

The argument in the text is not that the one who sins against us "owes" the massive "salvation debt" that WE owe the King of the universe when we sin -- NOR is the argument that the tiny debts incurred between servants is on the same massive insurmountable level as the debt FORGIVEN by the King for that servant.

in Christ,

bob

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

... In every age since Christ and the Apostles there have been true believers interpreting the Bible much like we do today....

If you cannot identify the people, or groups who make up these "true believers" how do you know that they "interpreted the Bible much like we do today"?

CA

 

[Danny Hurley]

1. There is no mention at all of "not having been born again" in this chapter -- at least not from Christ.

2. The ENTIRE POINT of the illustration is NOT of the form "well wicked slave - I did not REALLY forgive you to start with so you had no basis at all to forgive your fellow servant - you were merely doing to others what I had already done to you by NOT really forgiving you in the first place."

Such an argument inserted eisegetically into the text would destroy the entire sense of the text. It simply can not be done and preserve exegesis.

3. The entire argument is made based on "I REALLY DID forgive you so now you have no excuse at all for not forgiving others who sin against you JUST AS I forgave you".

The argument in the text is not that the one who sins against us "owes" the massive "salvation debt" that WE owe the King of the universe when we sin -- NOR is the argument that the tiny debts incurred between servants is on the same massive insurmountable level as the debt FORGIVEN by the King for that servant.

in Christ,

bob

Sorry to cross your mind but i have no fellowship with manifested heathen and pubilcans.

By the way just exactly what is it that thats bound in heaven, because of what was bound on earth?

 

[DHK]

If you cannot identify the people, or groups who make up these "true believers" how do you know that they "interpreted the Bible much like we do today"?
CA

You are a Baptist and belong to a Baptist church. This discussion would be far more profitable for you if you take it to the Baptist History forum, and you would learn much more about our Baptist heritage there.
For starters, even some of the Catholic bishops admit that the Waldenses existed all the way back to the time of the Apostles. There is a starting place. But this post is way off topic. This thread is about losing one's salvation; not Baptist history. Let's stick to the topic at hand please.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Danny,

You say,

Sorry to cross your mind but I have no fellowship with heathens and publicans

I ask you, what Matthew chapter 18 - Jesus spoken to whom??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

Now Let's see what Christ had to say - by contrast --



Question for the unbiased objective reader -- how determined are you to hold on to these Words of Christ -- as "truth" vs man-made opinions?

in Christ,

Bob

"Forgiveness Revoked" is an obscure doctrine taught by some sects. But it is found nowhere in the Bible. It is contrived only by drawing it out of a parable. But parables don't teach doctrine. They illustrate doctrine that has already been previously taught. NO new doctrine is ever taught in a parable--never. Thus we know from this fact alone that "forgiveness revoked" is a false doctrine. It comes from a twisting of the Scriptures drawn from a parable and taught no where else in Scripture.
That is not good hermeneutics.
It is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I would like to discuss om 'forgive' matter.

Let's discuss on 1 John chapter 1 mwntioned about forgive. But, also, it talking about our relationship with God. This chapter was not written to unbelievers, it was written to all believers.

Notice verse 6 says, "IF we(believers) say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and DO NOT the truth."

Many believers claim, "I did walk with the Lord daily", but, we cannot see in their minds and hearts, and we do not know what they are doing 24 hours. There are too many hyprocites out there. Many religions and baptists are two faces.

This verse tells us, we cannot do both in light and dark at same time. IF we practical sins in our life, then God would not pleasure with us. And we do(practical or action) not the truth. Means, we do not truly practical honest walk with God, while we are stay in darkness same time.

Then next verse 7 - "But IF we(believers) walk in the light, as he(Jesus) is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth(ing) us from all sin."

This verse tells us, we must meet our conditional base on our practical life, IF we walk in the light daily, so, therefore, the blood of Christ is continue cleaning all our currently sins. That mean, what if we do NOT walk in the light, then, Christ would NOT clean our current sins. Unless, we must quit walk in darkness, and remain walk in the light, then, Christ would continue cleansing our currently or present sins.

Then next verse 8 - "IF we(believers) say that we haave no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

This verse speaks of present time after we believed Christ, if suppose, we say, we have no sin, then we are being deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. That means, if suppose, we saying, we never been commit a sin for long time like one month or one year, then there is something wrong with in us, and the truth is not in us. 'Truth' is not speak of salvation or eternal life, or having Christ in us. 'Truth' speaking of our truly practical walk with God with truth or honest.

***Next verse 9 - "IF we(believers) confess our sins, he(Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

This verse is talking our present life, that we must meet our conditional with Christ base upon our confess. What if we continue sinning daily while do not make confess our currently sins, then Christ WILL NOT forgive our currently sins unless till we confess our sins to Christ first.

True, Christ is always faithful and just to forgive and cleaning our sins, LONG AS we continue confess our sins daily- no limited.

BUT, Christ cannot forgive our currently sins while we did not make confess our sins to him yet.

Many Christians like baptists believe, that we are already automatically already "forgived" ALL our sins at onced by through His blood on the cross 2000 years ago, nothing have to worry about our current and future sins, while we are still always saved till we die or rapture.

I will discuss on 1 John 2:1 in a moment.

Next verse 10 - "IF we(believers) say that we have not sinned, we make him(Christ) a liar, and his word is not in us."

That means, if suppose, we say, that we have not commit a sin for a long time, then, we make Christ, a liar, and his word is NOT in us."

this telling us, if we say, we have not sinned, then, Calvary is a vain gospel.

Christ knows that we are all humans and have flesh, still have old nature in us. We all have temptations daily in our life. We can easily commit a sin almost everyday in our lifetime. Impossible for us to be remain holy and never commit a sin throughout our life till death or rapture. Christ expects us, that we must be honest and being confess to Christ faithfully, ask for forgive sins, and be remain in the light all the times. Christ wants us to be holy life (1 Peter 1:15-16), means that, Christ's goal for us to be remain in the light, getting closer to him throughout our lifetime, reducing habits of practical sin life.

Now, let read next chapter -

1 John 2:1- "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin NOT. And IF any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

The first part of verse 1 tells us, we do NOT practical sin, this is a serious warning with concerning. John said, if any man sin, either unbeliever or believer as individual commit sin. So, Christ is our advocate with the Father.

Earlier, I did made a post on 1 John 2:1 on 'advocate'.

Many Baptists intepreting this verse means that Christ is our defense as attorney, for example, Christ is my attorney, Christ would saying to His father(The Judge), "this is my client, which I already paid all client's sins through my blood on the cross, client is still belong to mine."

That what baptists intepreting this verse to support unconditional security salvation doctrine.

Earlier, I did discussed on Matt. 10:32-33.

Matt. 10:32 - "confess" in my mind, it show the picture as Christ is our advocate' - Christ said, "him will I confess also before my Father, which is in heaven." This verse doesn't mean that it proved of unconditional. Because, at first, a person must show of act in lifetime with practical walk. A person have to confess before people, for example, we have to confess(being profession) before people that I am a Christian, not be shamed show them that I am Christian, must be honest to them. Cannot lie to them, because Christ sits on throne in the heaven, is watching over us 24 hours, what we are doing right now.

While we are on earth, we must telling them the truth with honest, telling them that I am a truly Christian, and being honest walk practical holy life till we die, while Christ is watching over us 24 hours. Once, we died with being confess and remain walk in the light. SO< therefore, Christ shall confess us before Father and the angels in the heaven at the Judgment Day. That means, Christ shall declared to them as He is our defender as attorney that, He saw us doing the right things in our lifetime as it RECORDED our actions and works in 'books' so, therefore our names shall remain in the book of life - Rev. 3:5.

BUT in Matt. 10:33 warns us, IF we deny people like, as we would saying to them, "No I am not a Christian", means that, we are lie to them. While we deny to them, Christ in the heaven is watching over us, he is not please with us, in another word, we deny him while we tell the lie to people same time. SO, therefore, at the Judgment Day, Christ would DENY us before Father and angels. Deny is pictured as reject.

What about 2 Timothy 2:11-13?

It says,

"It is a faithful saying. For IF we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: IF we suffer, we shall also reign with him, IF we deny him, he also will DENY us. if we believe not, yet he adideth faithful; he cannot deny himself."

This passage is very clear of conditional.

There are four things in this passage: 1. 'Dead in Christ' 2. 'suffer for Christ' 3. 'deny Christ' 4. 'not believe in Christ'

Number one: 'dead in Christ' means, we must deny our own life, surrender our life to Christ, forsake world, come and to follow Christ. If we forsake the world, and to follow Christ, SO, we shall have everlasting life with Christ at the end. OR, if we refuse surrender or yield to Christ, stay in world, then we will not have everlasting life with Christ at the end (Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13).

Number Two: 'suffer for Christ' means that, we must die daily by facing perscutions, to be endure witness gospel for Christ's Christ's sake. THEN, we shall also 'reign with Christ'. Many saying, 'reign with Christ' means millennial kingdom. No. Paul doesn't saying 'reign with Christ' shall be last for 1000 years. It is pictured mean that, we shall have eternal life with Christ. In another word, what IF we refuse suffer for Christ, then, we cannot have eternal life with Christ.

Number three: 'deny Christ' means that, IF we deny Christ in our lifetime, THEN, Christ would DENY us at the Judgment Day. Deny means reject. It shows that Christ would reject us at the Judgement Day, send us to lake of fire.

Number four: 'not believing in Christ'.

I would like to discuss on the last part of 1 Tim. 2:13, as what baptists intepreting it. They interpreting, "yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." proved us that we cannot lose salvation, while we disbelief Christ, still he is abideth faith and cannot deny us.

I would like to explain on this last part of verse 13 more clear.

verse 13 divided into two parts between us and Christ. First part of verse 13 talks toward us, the last part of verse 13 focus on Jesus only. First part of verse 13 tells us, if we disbelieving, so, therefore Christ will disown or reject us at the judgment day. The last part of verse 13 focus on Jesus, what he has done in his life on earth 2000 years ago. His examples was, he was faithful and abiding in his Father - John 15:10 till his death at the cross. He refused deny his life for his Father. The last part of verse 13 have do nothing with the proof of unconditional securiity salvation. This last part tells us, that we should follow Christ's example. Or, if we don't follow his example, then He would DENY us at the end, send us to lake of fire at the Judgement Day.

Back to 1 John 2:1. If suppose, we commiting sins in our life after we believed and accepted Christ. Then, we nailed Christ back to the cross - Heb. 6:6 "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and him to an open shame."

To be continued...

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Let's continued.

Look at IMPORTANT verse - **Hebrews 10:26** says,

"For IF we sin wifully AFTER THAT we heave received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifices for sins."

This tells us, what IF we continue practical habit sin life when AFTER we believed and accepted Christ at salvation, THEN, it would be NO LONGER remaining forgive our current & future sins.

Bible teaching us, we ought always to forgive person's sin as Christ is continue forgive our sins, also, we must confess our sins to Christ daily LONG AS Christ is faithful to forgive all our sins.

OR, if we do not forgive person's sin, then, Christ would NOT forgive our sins. Also, if we stopped confess our sins to Christ, while we are continue in sins, THEN, Christ will NOT forgive our current and future sins.

Bible teaches us very clear it is forgive revoked, if we refuse forgive one each other, and stopped confess our sins to Christ, so, therefore, Christ will NOT forgive our current & future sins.

Suppose if, we stopped confess our sins to Christ, and remain in dark all the way to our death at the end, then Christ WILL NOT forgive our current sins, then what will be happen to us at the Judgment Day? Our names would be removed from the book of life, and cast away in the lake of fire (Rev. 3:5).

Heb. 10:25 is very strong warning from God, if we continue in sins throughout our life AFTER we received Christ, then, afterward, will be NO LONGER remaining forgive our current and future sins, our current sins shall bring forth to the death(which speak of "second death" - lake of fire).

Hebrews 2:3 warns, "HOW shall we escape, IF we neglect so great salvation, which at THE FIRST BEGAN to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him." This warn us, how can we afford to neglect so great salvation, can we escape from hell? Impossible for us to escape from hell, if we neglect so great salvation, which at the FIRST, we heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is speak of when AFTER we heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, and did abide in Him for a while, then we turn away from the Lord, then HOW can we escape from hell?

This is very clear serious warning from God.

There are much overwhelmed in the New Testament warn on conditional salvation, we cannot afford to neglect them, we must take heed God's Word and hold it to the end, so, we can have eternal life.

IF we continue in sins AFTER we believed Christ at salvation, then, it would be no longer remain forgive our current and future sins, and our present sins without confess to Christ, shall bring forth to death(which speak of "second death" in lake of fire).

Not argue with me, argue with Hebrews 10:25.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DHK]

Back to 1 John 2:1. If suppose, we commiting sins in our life after we believed and accepted Christ. Then, we nailed Christ back to the cross - Heb. 6:6 "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and him to an open shame."

To be continued...

No need to continue--taking Scripture out of its context.
1John 2:1 is speaking to Christians; Christians who already have their sins forgiven: past, present and future. Their sins are all under the blood. God remembers them no more.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The word "we" indicates it is written to believers, as John includes himself. John states that it is the will of God not to sin, and yet at the same time if we do we have an advocate with the Father, who is Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is our High Priest. He ever liveth to make intercession for us (believers).

The whole chapter is concerned with a right relationship between the Father and the believer. It has nothing to do with salvation. In fact it is not just chapter one or two; it is the entire book that is written for Christians and for the benefit of the Christian knowing for sure that they can have an assurance of salvation. An assurance of salvation is not losing salvation and is not salvation in and of itself. The epistle answers the question: This is how I can know that I am saved:...

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." NONE

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

Care to explain us of Hebrews 10:25, what it mean to you?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

DHK,

Look, Hebrews 6:4-6 is very clear speak to us, not unbelievers.


Let look at verse 4 says,

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE MADE partakers of the Holy Ghost."

This tells us, they were saved in the FIRST PLACE.

Securists usually telling us, they were falling away, because they were not saved in the first place. This is a type of arguement. This is fallacy.

Then. Hebrews 6:5 says, "And HAVE TASTED the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"

THis proved us that they were actual saved in the first place.

Then verse 6 says, "IF they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

This tells us, IF they falling away, then, impossible for those to be remain saved, put person to be shamed. Which it speaks of future judgment seat of Christ/great white throne.

This passage doesn't mean that they will never have another chance to repentance again while they are falling away. This is speak of CURRENTLY falling away as they continued right now, it would lead them to be shamed in the judgment day. Unless they repent of their sins right away while they are still alive prior their death of Heb. 9:27. Or, if theu remain in sins without repent by the time they died, then it would be too late for them, and they shall face their appointment of their judgment. Thei sins will send them to hell.

Recently post, you mentioned of 'assurance of salvation'.

Ahhh! While I read of Hebrews 6:4-6 same time, somehow, I suddenly caught verse 11. I would like to show you of it.

Hebrews 6:11 - "And we(faithful believers) desire that every one of you(apply to us) do shew the same dliigence to the full assurance(of what?-) HOPE unto the end."

Many securists use 1 John 5:13 to proved us that we can know for sure without doubt that we already have eternal life at the moment when after we received Christ at salvation.

They doing their bad habits by quote a verse out of its' context, what the whole passage is talking about.

I would like to discuss important word - 'know' of 1 John 5:13.

'Know" have several meanings more than just aware or knowledge. The context of 1 John chapter 5 talking about having relationship with Christ.

'Know' is a good example of Genesis 4:1 - "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gooten a man form the LORD."

Word, 'knew' is not just mean know that person well, it have meanings. This verse tells us of the grammar was talking about Adam sex Eve and bare Cain.

Back to 1 John 5:13, 'know' speak of having relationship with Christ. Being be confidence yourself in Christ by faith.

Before we arrive verse 13, you need to understand the whole passage as context, what it is talking about. We have to read begin verse one.

1 John 5:1 says, "Whosoever believETH that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him also that is begotten of him."

It speaks of having relationship with Christ by believing and knowing him.

Then, next verse 2 - "BY this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and KEEP his commandments."

'Know' is speaking of have relationship with Christ.

Same with in John 14:15 says, "IF ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."

The point is of 1 John 5:13 tells us, that we can have truly assurance of having eternal life by believe on Christ. It doesn't saying, 'believED', it says, 'believe' is a continue sense. That means, we can have true assurance of salvation while we believing and being confidence in Christ.

Now back to Hebrews 6:11. Notice, it says, "you DO SHEW the same dilegence to the full assurance of hope UNTO THE END."

This mean that, we have to do shew the serious things with being confidence of our HOPE unto the end.

'Hope' is speak of eternal life, NOT so called, 'rapture' such as what pretribs intepreting Titus 2:13. How do I know? Look to Titus 1:2 says, "In hope(of what??-) ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"

Our hope is not pretrib rapture, our hope is eternal life according to Titus 3:7.

Now back to Heb. 6:11, it says, "...hope UNTO THE END."

What 'unto the end' speak of? It speaks of our lifetime. According to Matthew 10:22 and 24:13. Our real final salvation doesn't begin at our moment salvation by accepted Christ, it is only beginning, our real final salvation shall be at our death or Lord comes.

Excuse me, it is now past 5 am. I need to stop. I am tired. Why I do stay up so late? Because I am off from third shift job -Friday night. That why I have time to make posts.

I will continue discuss more with you on salvation.

Good night. God bless you.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

DHK

DHK quotes BobRyan
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan

Now Let's see what Christ had to say - by contrast --

<"Predictably" the Words of Christ are deleted here by DHK in this quote of my post>

Question for the unbiased objective reader -- how determined are you to hold on to these Words of Christ -- as "truth" vs man-made opinions?

in Christ,

Bob

"Forgiveness Revoked" is an obscure doctrine taught by some sects. But it is found nowhere in the Bible

Now let's contrast that to what Christ actually said --

Matt 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared[/b] to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

And again - let's appeal to the unbiased objective reader - the serious Bible student to read the Words of Christ and contrast that to the words given by DHK to SEE which one they will accept.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob points to the "inconvenient details" in the Words of Christ found in Matt 18.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. There is no mention at all of "not having been born again" in this chapter -- at least not from Christ.

2. The ENTIRE POINT of the illustration is NOT of the form "well wicked slave - I did not REALLY forgive you to start with so you had no basis at all to forgive your fellow servant - you were merely doing to others what I had already done to you by NOT really forgiving you in the first place."

Such an argument inserted eisegetically into the text would destroy the entire sense of the text. It simply can not be done and preserve exegesis.

3. The entire argument is made based on "I REALLY DID forgive you so now you have no excuse at all for not forgiving others who sin against you JUST AS I forgave you".

The argument in the text is not that the one who sins against us "owes" the massive "salvation debt" that WE owe the King of the universe when we sin -- NOR is the argument that the tiny debts incurred between servants is on the same massive insurmountable level as the debt FORGIVEN by the King for that servant.

The ball is in Dan's court to address the Words of Christ found in Matt 18 and more specifically to address the "inconvenient details of Matt 18" so willingly "glossed over" by those who are not pleased to find Christ's words in Matt 18

Sorry to cross your mind but i have no fellowship with manifested heathen and pubilcans.

Did you not read Matt 18 at all??? Your response is a "gloss over" at a level I do not think I have seen before in any exegetical review of scripture - surely not in the case of Matt 18.

May I suggest that you embrace "sola scriptura" for "real"?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What about 2 Timothy 2:11-13?

It says,

"It is a faithful saying. For IF we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: IF we suffer, we shall also reign with him, IF we deny him, he also will DENY us. if we believe not, yet he adideth faithful; he cannot deny himself."

This passage is very clear of conditional.

There are four things in this passage: 1. 'Dead in Christ' 2. 'suffer for Christ' 3. 'deny Christ' 4. 'not believe in Christ'

Number one: 'dead in Christ' means, we must deny our own life, surrender our life to Christ, forsake world, come and to follow Christ. If we forsake the world, and to follow Christ, SO, we shall have everlasting life with Christ at the end. OR, if we refuse surrender or yield to Christ, stay in world, then we will not have everlasting life with Christ at the end (Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13).

Number Two: 'suffer for Christ' means that, we must die daily by facing perscutions, to be endure witness gospel for Christ's Christ's sake. THEN, we shall also 'reign with Christ'. Many saying, 'reign with Christ' means millennial kingdom. No. Paul doesn't saying 'reign with Christ' shall be last for 1000 years. It is pictured mean that, we shall have eternal life with Christ. In another word, what IF we refuse suffer for Christ, then, we cannot have eternal life with Christ.

Number three: 'deny Christ' means that, IF we deny Christ in our lifetime, THEN, Christ would DENY us at the Judgment Day. Deny means reject. It shows that Christ would reject us at the Judgement Day, send us to lake of fire.

Number four: 'not believing in Christ'.

I would like to discuss on the last part of 1 Tim. 2:13, as what baptists intepreting it. They interpreting, "yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." proved us that we cannot lose salvation, while we disbelief Christ, still he is abideth faith and cannot deny us.

Well said. This is a faithful accounting of the details in that Text --

Thanks.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Now let's contrast that to what Christ actually said --

Matt 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared[/b] to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'

29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

And again - let's appeal to the unbiased objective reader - the serious Bible student to read the Words of Christ and contrast that to the words given by DHK to SEE which one they will accept.

in Christ,

Bob

The above are the only words which show up in response to your quote Bob. For you to attack me and say that I personally left out part of your quote is unethical and deceitful. You know very well that anything put in quotes does not show up in the box unless it is deliberately copied and pasted in such as you had done. Your deceitfulness knows no bounds. Your accusations are unfounded. I will go back and copy and paste this one quote:

"Forgiveness Revoked" is an obscure doctrine taught by some sects. But it is found nowhere in the Bible. It is contrived only by drawing it out of a parable. But parables don't teach doctrine. They illustrate doctrine that has already been previously taught. NO new doctrine is ever taught in a parable--never. Thus we know from this fact alone that "forgiveness revoked" is a false doctrine. It comes from a twisting of the Scriptures drawn from a parable and taught no where else in Scripture.
That is not good hermeneutics.
It is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

This is my quote. And I stand by it as absolute truth.
You may present Scriptures, as many do, that one can lose their salvation. But you have no argument when it comes to this obscure and false doctrine of what you call "forgiveness revoked." It goes against the character of God; against the totality of Scripture; against all that God has ever taught about forgiveness.

God has said about forgiveness:
That he has paid for them at the cross with his blood.
That he remembers them no more,
That he has put them behind his back,
That he has buried them in them in the deepest sea,
That they are as far as the east is from the west,

What you teach goes against everything ever taught about the forgiveness of God. It is a blatant false doctrine, not found anywhere in Scripture.

When one comes to Christ, he does so on the basis of the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, knowing that Christ paid the penalty for our sins. He comes receiving Christ as Saviour by grace through faith. You have denied this very essential truth.
You deny that salvation is by grace through faith.
You deny that Christ paid the full penalty for our sins.
You believe in a false doctrine called "forgiveness revoked," and thus infer that the forgiveness of sin that Christ paid for was not sufficient. His blood was not adequate. It could be revoked. Salvation is now by works.
You believe in the heresy of a works salvation. Work until you sin. Go to confession. Restore your salvation through forgiveness. Work until your sin. Restore your salvation. Your religion is no different than typical Catholicism.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: When one comes to Christ, he does so on the basis of the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, knowing that Christ paid the penalty for our sins. He comes receiving Christ as Saviour by grace through faith. You have denied this very essential truth.

HP: Speaking of false accusations and in your words to BR “unethical and deceitful” I would say that four out of the five fingers you are pointing are directing my attention to your own comments.

Here you speak as one attempting to take the high ground in a debate, as if though all that would disagree with your underlying approach to these notions the opponent is of necessity making false accusations and being “unethical and deceitful.” That is quite an accusation DHK. The truth of the matter is that BR, as I understand him, you, as well as myself all can make the statement you make above and be in agreement to it. The problem lies NOT in your statement above, but whether or not one views the atonement from a literal payment theory perspective or not. You beg the real important questions of any debate we have ever had on the issue concerning salvation. You ASSUME WITHOUT PROOF that a literal payment was made, as in opposition to a substitutionary atonement.

Instead of the personal attacks, why not show to us via Scripture that a literal payment was indeed made? That would facilitate reasonable debate in a manner far more conducive to Christian charity. Show us one Scripture that states that a literal payment was made.

If a literal payment was made as you obviously hold to, show us how you can logically avoid Calvinsistic/Augustinian fatalism by such an approach to salvation. Show us how one can ever be held accountable for sin, seeing that Christ not only died for our sins but for those of the entire world. Tell us how Christ can literally pay for sins that somehow are never remitted due to the fact that neither of us believe in universalism? Show us why such a view of the atonement as you espouse, is not a wasteful system on one hand, i.e., God suffering a paying for the sins of some that have no real impact for they are in the end not forgiven. Why does your view of a literal payment make the atonement of Christ less that effective to secure its intended end, i.e., the forgiveness of the sins of the entire world? How can something be literally paid for, as you propose, and then in the end not be paid for? When does your theory of a literal payment revoke its payment made? When does God take back the payment made for the sins of the entire world, (in this case including those that are in the end lost) which you say were literally paid for and then obviously revoked at some later time?