Can You Come to Christ on Your Own Part II

[JD731]

I'll say that the way of Salvation and the Blessings of Salvation, were the same in The Old Testament, as in The New Testament and you can look 'em up.

Are you sure you want to have two, or more, ways of Salvation?

From: https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/gill/A_Body_of_Doctrinal_Divinity_-_John_Gill.pdf

1e. In the blessings of Salvation; they are the same under both administrations.

Salvation and redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other (2 Samuel 23:5; Hebrews 9:15).

Justification by the righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new (Isaiah 45:24,25; Romans 3:21-23).

Forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it (Psalm 32:1,5; Isaiah 43:25; Micah 7:18; Acts 10:43).

Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and sanctification were what men were made partakers of under the first, as under the second administration of the covenant (Deuteronomy 30:6; Philippians 3:3).

Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New; and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation (John 5:39; Hebrews 11:10,16; Job 19:26,27).

In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat,
and drink the same spiritual drink,
for they drank of that Rock that followed them,
and that Rock was Christ (1 Corinthians 10:3,4).

Did I misrepresent any of the scriptures that I presented in the post you are referencing? If so, point it out and we will talk. Address the logic.

 

[JD731]

Nothing changes, man cannot come to Christ on their own, meaning they cant believe on Him on their own.

There is no salvation in the OT, as the scriptures define and describe salvation. There is justification by faith in the OT but if sinners sins were remitted in the OT, then Jesus Christ would not have had to die.

The fact that you do not know that, or that you reject that truth, or that you simply ignore it, causes you to preach a false, a very false, gospel.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[AustinC]

Are you making the case for a collective salvation?

What does the text say? How did Jesus establish the New Covenant for the children of God?
You keep wanting to have God work on your timeline, yet God continually shows you that his point of view is drastically different than your point of view. From your POV, you are saved by your response to a specific choice at a specific time. From God's POV, you were chosen before the foundation of the world and the Covenant was read, with your name on it, after Jesus died as your atoning sacrifice.
Read the text.

*Hebrews 9:15-28*
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

 

[Silverhair]

Let's look at any passage and the corresponding passages that help us understand what God is saying. I leave the passage for you to pick. I've done this before with you, but we can do it again so others can see how you process the Bible and how I process the Bible. No ghosts allowed. Just observation of the Bible.

Go ahead. Pick the passage.

Rom_3:10-18

Paul in Romans has been building a case for the universality of sin and the need for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Now Paul cites several Old Testament passages in support of his argument that all people, Jews and Gentiles, are lost and in need a saviour.

In verses 10-12, Paul is emphasizing the universality of sin and the need for salvation. He argues that there is no one who is righteous, and lives up to God's standard of perfection. Both Jews and Gentiles are under sin, and thus no one is able to boast. The idea of no one being righteous is a common theme found in the Bible, and it is intended to emphasize the seriousness of sin and the need for a solution.

In verses 13-18, Paul is focusing on the role of the law of Moses, that was given to the Jews, which serves as a witness to the universality of sin. He uses several Old Testament passages to support his argument that the law serves as a witness to sin, and that it cannot justify or save anyone through obedience to it as no one is able keep the law perfectly. Thus all are condemned.

Overall, these verses emphasize the idea that all people are guilty of sin and in need of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. It is important to understand that Paul is not saying that the law is bad or unnecessary, but rather that it serves a specific purpose. The law was given to the Jews to reveal their need for a Savior, and to show that no one can be saved by their own efforts. In this way, the law serves as a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ, and to show that salvation is only possible through faith in Him. This is a central message of the gospel, and is intended to show that salvation is available to all who believe, not just to a select few.

 

[AustinC]

You do realize that the overall context of what you had posted does not support your view. I read the whole post and what you try to accomplish by highlighting those words really does not work as you seem to think it does.

So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for “‘In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

This is the typical method of Calvinist interpretation. Pick out various words that you thing support your errant view. God saves but He saves those that actually trust in His son. In context how do you think your highlighted words support your errant view? Just pulling random words out of context is the calvinist way of doing exegesis but it means nothing.

I looked at your random words and corrected your errant understanding of then but as per normal you ignore so here is my response again. Perhaps this time you will deal with the text of the post? Doubt it though.

Did you actually read what I wrote, i doubt that you did. I just used those verses to show you that Paul preached at the Areopagus. I noted the verses or rather the words that you highlighted. Did you read the verses that I referenced?

"that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him" note that they should seek & they should feel their way, FREE WILL

But some men joined him and believed, Note they heard Paul preach and then they chose to join him and some of them believed. They were not forced to join Paul or to believe, so again FREE WILL

but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Now this Greek word {commands} could have been translated via various words some of which are "exhort or entreat" which actually fits the context better. Why is that you ask, well think about this. Since God is sovereign and you say He controls all things then if we use the word "commands" as would fit your understanding of commands then all people must repent but if we were to use "exhort or entreat" then we see that God, as He has said elsewhere, desires all to repent but does not force anyone to do so.

Read the whole thing. Those that would find God do so because it is appointed to them to do so.

The context tells us this and it answers you directly, but you turn your back on everything around your verse and ignore the context so that you can create an interpretation that is void of the context. You do it right in your comment to me and thus show all the readers that my claim about you is accurate.

 

[Brightfame52]

There is no salvation in the OT, as the scriptures define and describe salvation. There is justification by faith in the OT but if sinners sins were remitted in the OT, then Jesus Christ would not have had to die.

The fact that you do not know that, or that you reject that truth, or that you simply ignore it, causes you to preach a false, a very false, gospel.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

I dont know what you talking about, you going all over the place. Man cannot come to Christ on his own Jn 6:44,65 which means he cant believe in Christ on his own, which destroys the freewill lie.

 

[Brightfame52]

Rom_3:10-18

Paul in Romans has been building a case for the universality of sin and the need for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Now Paul cites several Old Testament passages in support of his argument that all people, Jews and Gentiles, are lost and in need a saviour.

In verses 10-12, Paul is emphasizing the universality of sin and the need for salvation. He argues that there is no one who is righteous, and lives up to God's standard of perfection. Both Jews and Gentiles are under sin, and thus no one is able to boast. The idea of no one being righteous is a common theme found in the Bible, and it is intended to emphasize the seriousness of sin and the need for a solution.

In verses 13-18, Paul is focusing on the role of the law of Moses, that was given to the Jews, which serves as a witness to the universality of sin. He uses several Old Testament passages to support his argument that the law serves as a witness to sin, and that it cannot justify or save anyone through obedience to it as no one is able keep the law perfectly. Thus all are condemned.

Overall, these verses emphasize the idea that all people are guilty of sin and in need of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. It is important to understand that Paul is not saying that the law is bad or unnecessary, but rather that it serves a specific purpose. The law was given to the Jews to reveal their need for a Savior, and to show that no one can be saved by their own efforts. In this way, the law serves as a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ, and to show that salvation is only possible through faith in Him. This is a central message of the gospel, and is intended to show that salvation is available to all who believe, not just to a select few.

No such thing as salvation being available ! And believing is the result of salvation and not the condition, that would be works !

 

[DaveXR650]

Now if someone like @Silverhair , or Calvin, comes to Christ and believes and thinks they believed before they were saved, are they still saved?

 

[JD731]

I dont know what you talking about, you going all over the place. Man cannot come to Christ on his own Jn 6:44,65 which means he cant believe in Christ on his own, which destroys the freewill lie.

I have asked questions and stated facts about John 6 that you are ignoring and refusing to answer. These things are important for you. I have stated nothing to you that is not true and what I have said deserves your consideration. It is logical and true. You are not required to see the person of Jesus Christ in order to be saved like John 6:40 states to those Jews in the synagogue in Capernaum on that day after Jesus confirmed he was the personification of the OT type of the manna, the bread of life, that God sent down from heaven that men may eat and live.

Jesus said, "except you eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you." This means that Jesus Christ cannot save a man when he is on the outside no more than the food that he provided the day before could quench their hunger until it was consumed. The way men are saved is when Jesus Christ in the person of the Holy Spirit indwells an individual.

The same man who wrote the gospel of John also wrote these words later in his first epistle.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

People in the OT were justified by believing God, what he said to them, but they were not saved. God counted, or imputed, their faith for righteousness, but it did not clear away their sins. Only the blood of Christ, the perfect sacrifice of God, could do that. The blood was applied to the OT believers, after Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. All men are justified by faith, but not faith in the same thing. The sins of all men of all time are washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ and the Spirit of Christ indwells their bodies and saves their souls.

THIS IS JUST A FACT

Mt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard [that], said, This [man] calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled [it] with vinegar, and put [it] on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Think!

 

[Silverhair]

Read the whole thing. Those that would find God do so because it is appointed to them to do so.

The context tells us this and it answers you directly, but you turn your back on everything around your verse and ignore the context so that you can create an interpretation that is void of the context. You do it right in your comment to me and thus show all the readers that my claim about you is accurate.

Context does not support your errant view. The fact you can not or rather will not see this just proves you have a closed mind. You are reading into the text what you want to see and that is proven by the fact you have to highlight chosen words that do not even logically fit together.

"that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him" note that they should seek & they should feel their way, FREE WILL

But some men joined him and believed, Note they heard Paul preach and then they chose to join him and some of them believed. They were not forced to join Paul or to believe, so again FREE WILL

but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Now this Greek word {commands} could have been translated via various words some of which are "exhort or entreat" which actually fits the context better. Why is that you ask, well think about this. Since God is sovereign and you say He controls all things then if we use the word "commands" as would fit your understanding of commands then all people must repent but if we were to use "exhort or entreat" then we see that God, as He has said elsewhere, desires all to repent but does not force anyone to do so.

So we see that man must seek God & feel their way they & some joined and believed, those are all free will actions.

You claim that God has appointed them to find God. But the question is what does the text say
1] Act 17:26 having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
2] Act 17:31 He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed

Austin you are avoiding the obvious and reading into the text what you need to find.

 

[Silverhair]

No such thing as salvation being available ! And believing is the result of salvation and not the condition, that would be works !

BF the fact the bible does not agree will, I am sure, not convince you as you are locked into your errant theology.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Read those verses but be sure to look at and understand the red text. Faith is not a work and it is the condition of salvation. Why is it that you do not believe what the Holy Spirit has clearly said:
Romans10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Romans 10:17 ...faith comes by hearing word of God
Galatians 3:8 ...that God would justify the Gentiles by faith
Galatians 3:14 ...receive the promise...through faith
Galatians 3:24 ...that we might be justified by faith
Galatians 3:26 ...sons of God through faith in Christ

 

[AustinC]

Context does not support your errant view. The fact you can not or rather will not see this just proves you have a closed mind. You are reading into the text what you want to see and that is proven by the fact you have to highlight chosen words that do not even logically fit together.

"that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him" note that they should seek & they should feel their way, FREE WILL

But some men joined him and believed, Note they heard Paul preach and then they chose to join him and some of them believed. They were not forced to join Paul or to believe, so again FREE WILL

but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Now this Greek word {commands} could have been translated via various words some of which are "exhort or entreat" which actually fits the context better. Why is that you ask, well think about this. Since God is sovereign and you say He controls all things then if we use the word "commands" as would fit your understanding of commands then all people must repent but if we were to use "exhort or entreat" then we see that God, as He has said elsewhere, desires all to repent but does not force anyone to do so.

So we see that man must seek God & feel their way they & some joined and believed, those are all free will actions.

You claim that God has appointed them to find God. But the question is what does the text say
1] Act 17:26 having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
2] Act 17:31 He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed

Austin you are avoiding the obvious and reading into the text what you need to find.

Sliverhair, you are avoiding the observed text and reading into the text what you wish to find.
What does the text say?

*Acts 17 : 22-34*
So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Sliverhair, is God in control...or are you in control? What does the text tell us?

 

[Brightfame52]

I have asked questions and stated facts about John 6 that you are ignoring and refusing to answer. These things are important for you. I have stated nothing to you that is not true and what I have said deserves your consideration. It is logical and true. You are not required to see the person of Jesus Christ in order to be saved like John 6:40 states to those Jews in the synagogue in Capernaum on that day after Jesus confirmed he was the personification of the OT type of the manna, the bread of life, that God sent down from heaven that men may eat and live.

Jesus said, "except you eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you." This means that Jesus Christ cannot save a man when he is on the outside no more than the food that he provided the day before could quench their hunger until it was consumed. The way men are saved is when Jesus Christ in the person of the Holy Spirit indwells an individual.

The same man who wrote the gospel of John also wrote these words later in his first epistle.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

People in the OT were justified by believing God, what he said to them, but they were not saved. God counted, or imputed, their faith for righteousness, but it did not clear away their sins. Only the blood of Christ, the perfect sacrifice of God, could do that. The blood was applied to the OT believers, after Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. All men are justified by faith, but not faith in the same thing. The sins of all men of all time are washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ and the Spirit of Christ indwells their bodies and saves their souls.

THIS IS JUST A FACT

Mt 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard [that], said, This [man] calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled [it] with vinegar, and put [it] on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Think!

Your questions are senseless, Nothing changes, Jesus said no man can come to Him except the Father draws him Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Thats not changing ! So why waste time with senseless questions

 

[Brightfame52]

BF the fact the bible does not agree will, I am sure, not convince you as you are locked into your errant theology.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Read those verses but be sure to look at and understand the red text. Faith is not a work and it is the condition of salvation. Why is it that you do not believe what the Holy Spirit has clearly said:
Romans10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Romans 10:17 ...faith comes by hearing word of God
Galatians 3:8 ...that God would justify the Gentiles by faith
Galatians 3:14 ...receive the promise...through faith
Galatians 3:24 ...that we might be justified by faith
Galatians 3:26 ...sons of God through faith in Christ

Okay, but no such thing as salvation being available, that is man made stuff.

 

[Silverhair]

Now if someone like @Silverhair , or Calvin, comes to Christ and believes and thinks they believed before they were saved, are they still saved?

YES The bible says we are saved because we believe not so that we will believe. Those ideas came from Calvinist theology through men “A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

 

[AustinC]

YES The bible says we are saved because we believe not so that we will believe. Those ideas came from Calvinist theology through men “A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

The Bible says we were written into the Will (before the foundation of the world) and receive an inheritance. (Ephesians 1, Romans 8, Hebrews 9)

Our salvation was sure.

 

[Silverhair]

Sliverhair, you are avoiding the observed text and reading into the text what you wish to find.
What does the text say?

*Acts 17 : 22-34*
So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Sliverhair, is God in control...or are you in control? What does the text tell us?

I am not questioning that God is sovereign but you seem to have a real problem with this text. Man has to freely seek, and trust in God and then God will save them. You are just picking out select words Austin. Read the whole text.
Does God seek God for them,
does He feel their way toward Him for them,
does He find God for them,
does He repent for them

The answer is NO. God does not do those thing for man they must do them themselves. You highlight these words and then ignore them.

What does Act 17:34 say?
Act 17:34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Only God saves but He has chosen to save those that freely believe. God does not believe for them.

 

[AustinC]

I am not questioning that God is sovereign but you seem to have a real problem with this text. Man has to freely seek, and trust in God and then God will save them. You are just picking out select words Austin. Read the whole text.
Does God seek God for them,
does He feel their way toward Him for them,
does He find God for them,
does He repent for them

The answer is NO. God does not do those thing for man they must do them themselves. You highlight these words and then ignore them.

What does Act 17:34 say?
Act 17:34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Only God saves but He has chosen to save those that freely believe. God does not believe for them.

I can only point out what God had Paul say, and I have no problem with what God said.
You refuse the whole text. That is where the problem lies.
You state: "He has chosen to save those that freely believe. God does not believe for them."

Where does Paul make that statement? It's not in Acts 17, so where is that statement made?

 

[JD731]

Your questions are senseless, Nothing changes, Jesus said no man can come to Him except the Father draws him Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Thats not changing ! So why waste time with senseless questions

Now you are being purposely evasive. You are much too intelligent to act as if I have not made a biblical and persuasive presentation of the truth that cannot be ignored by an honest person who is concerned with the pursuit of the knowledge of God. God does have a charge against some men which he calls "willful ignorance." I hope you are not under the spell of this spirit.

The manner in which God the Father draws these Jews to his Son is described by the text. They knew about the manna and now Jesus is putting the explanation of the manna to himself and making the application in order to teach them about the salvation through himself that God is making in this paticular application. They, the Jews alone, would be drawn this way because of their familiarity with the Jewissh scriptures. They knew about the manna.

Look at this and learn how they are drawn.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets,
And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man

therefore

that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Stop! Learn what the therefore is there for.

It is to explain how they are drawn and it is by learning the spiritual content of the scriptures. It tells us WHO will come.

You must allow yourself to be taught the truth and you must believe it. I am here to help.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now you are being purposely evasive. You are much too intelligent to act as if I have not made a biblical and persuasive presentation of the truth that cannot be ignored by an honest person who is concerned with the pursuit of the knowledge of God. God does have a charge against some men which he calls "willful ignorance." I hope you are not under the spell of this spirit.

The manner in which God the Father draws these Jews to his Son is described by the text. They knew about the manna and now Jesus is putting the explanation of the manna to himself and making the application in order to teach them about the salvation through himself that God is making in this paticular application. They, the Jews alone, would be drawn this way because of their familiarity with the Jewissh scriptures. They knew about the manna.

Look at this and learn how they are drawn.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets,
And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man

therefore

that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Stop! Learn what the therefore is there for.

It is to explain how they are drawn and it is by learning the spiritual content of the scriptures. It tells us WHO will come.

You must allow yourself to be taught the truth and you must believe it. I am here to help.

I dont know why you dont get it. Jesus says no man can come to Him unless the Father Draws him Jn 6:44. So that answers the question "can-you-come-to-christ-on-your-own-" NO