Can you lose your salvation?

[Don]

Just my two cents: for those that ask how someone can "choose" not to remain/abide in Christ, there's a verse in Hebrews that settles it for me:

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The author of Hebrews makes a distinction between two types of people: Those that just hang out with Jesus, and those that actually believe to the saving of their soul.


One last comment: Sorry, DefenderoftheFaith, but your interpretation of Hebrews 3:12 (“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”) has a wrong emphasis. Try this instead:

Hebrews 3:12 {KJV}
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

Now, using the context of the entire verse, the author is indicating that there may be one, or two, or a few that actually have a heart of unbelief. And since we all know that unbelief will keep us from God, how can you say that people with a heart of unbelief have lost their salvation? Or can you somehow prove, via this verse or the surrounding context of the passage, that they ever had salvation in the first place?

 

[olivia529]

Not future. Show one. Anytime we are said to be "saved" or "receive" salvation, it is always in the Greek present tense, or a couple times in the past.

BUT: all it takes is for Him to tell ONE person you ARE or you WERE saved, to absolutely blow this idea out of the water, as my esteemed colleague has said.

I think there are a couple of references for our "hope" for salvation, which to me means something we are receiving in the future or we would not 'hope" for it, we would have it.

Romans 13:11 says that our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed, which makes me conclude that it is again something to come in the future.

Paul says that he is working out his salvation in fear and trembling, which I think again implies something in the future or he wouldn't be 'working it out'. And there is a reference in Phillipians I think where he says he has not yet obtained the prize that Christ took hold of for him so he keeps working toward the goal.

I can look them all up tomorrow but I'm going to bed tonight. Nice talking to you all.

 

[olivia529]

Just my two cents: for those that ask how someone can "choose" not to remain/abide in Christ, there's a verse in Hebrews that settles it for me:

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The author of Hebrews makes a distinction between two types of people: Those that just hang out with Jesus, and those that actually believe to the saving of their soul.


One last comment: Sorry, DefenderoftheFaith, but your interpretation of Hebrews 3:12 (“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”) has a wrong emphasis. Try this instead:

Hebrews 3:12 {KJV}
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

Now, using the context of the entire verse, the author is indicating that there may be one, or two, or a few that actually have a heart of unbelief. And since we all know that unbelief will keep us from God, how can you say that people with a heart of unbelief have lost their salvation? Or can you somehow prove, via this verse or the surrounding context of the passage, that they ever had salvation in the first place?

So can someone who is just hanging out with Jesus become a branch "in him" do you think?

 

[Havensdad]

So can someone who is just hanging out with Jesus become a branch "in him" do you think?

Yep, just like the "weeds" which were "in His kingdom". That does not change the fact that they were never wheat.

 

[Havensdad]

Meno -- A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) -- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

I'm not sure how someone can "stay" someplace they have never been.

Easy. let's look:

"If anyone does not abide in me..."

Strong's means "stay" in the sense of abide, or "dwell" notice, this similar sentence...

"If anyone does not stay at my house tonight, they will not get to eat".

See? Very easy. I could be telling this to my friends five states away. It makes NO inference of someone already being at my house: it is merely a statement of fact.

Also within the context of that discussion is the 2nd verse where Christ says the Father cuts out every branch "in Christ" that bears no fruit. So there is another reference to someone who has been a branch, and is not any longer. You cannot be cut out if you're not a branch. So do you think you can be a branch "in Christ" and not be saved? I don't think I do.

Christ disagrees, at least in the context of His parables. There is "weeds" in "His" kingdom, right along with the wheat.

Also, look at what Jesus says to those who "bear no fruit" in Matthew 7> "I never, at no time knew you". Is Jesus a liar?

But like I said earlier, I think it is one of the most interesting discussions in theology. Of course the more historical churches like the Orthodox and Catholics do not believe in OSAS. But within those churches who profess to be "Bible-alone", as near as I can tell the Southern Baptists, most Independent Baptists (though not all), the Presbyterians and the Pentecostals believe in OSAS. The General Baptists, Free-will Baptists, Lutherans, Church of Christ, and Methodists don't.

And the non-denoms are kind of all across the board. More or less depends on the views of the individual pastor.

There were early believers in Perseverance of the Saints (Please do not call it once saved, always saved: different doctrine).

 

[Zenas]

There were early believers in Perseverance of the Saints (Please do not call it once saved, always saved: different doctrine).

Some of the writings of Augustine could be construed to support perseverance of the saints. I don't think you will find any others who hold to this doctrine.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Some of the writings of Augustine could be construed to support perseverance of the saints.

The key is "some" of his writings may be so "construed". However, looking at his writings as a whole, Augustine believed that just because one may be regenerate at one time that it doesn't mean that one will ultimately found to be part of the elect. In other words, he believed that the "saved" could potentially fall and that some indeed would.

I don't think you will find any others who hold to this doctrine.

You're right. One will look in vain for examples of the early Church fathers who believed in "OSAS".

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I don't have a "hope so", "think so", salvation. I have a "know so" salvation.

If I could lose my salvation, Jesus would have to die on the cross again in order for me to get it back.

Jesus said, "It is finished." I believe Him, but whether or not I believe Him has nothing to do with the fact that He speaks the truth.

For the two 'newbies' on this thread, it is customary to go to the Welcome Forum and introduce yourself before you start telling us 'oldies' what the Scriptures 'really' mean.

Olivia: I have a question for you. You list Christian on your profile, but "undecided" for the church you attend.

Does that mean that you don't know what church you attend, or that you don't attend church, or that you attend several?

Thanks in advance for your answer. Inquiring minds want to know.

Please check you PM's.

Blessings,
§ue :type:

 

[Havensdad]

I don't have a "hope so", "think so", salvation. I have a "know so" salvation.

If I could lose my salvation, Jesus would have to die on the cross again in order for me to get it back.

Actually according to the texts the way they use them, this would be impossible. Once a person comes to Christ, and turns away, they would be a lost cause.

 

[webdog]

That makes no sense at all....salvation is a gift we must accept and maintain...but if we reject the gift (salvation) and return to the filth of the world - then you lose the gift and God is simply waiting for you to re-accept that gift.

Did you not read any of the verses I gave you or do you try to respond with some type of witty response to try to make me look like a fool when you yourself can't give me any Biblical backing for your belief.

WE have to "maintain" it The Bible tells us salvation BELONGS to the Lord, we don't maintain anything!

 

[webdog]

Truthfully, I have seen folks take all the eternal security scriptures and do the same thing.

But the one that generally makes me fall on the side of you can lose your salvation is the one you're talking about here. You say it's not a condition but a statement of fact, but there is a condition involved. Jesus says "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”

Since "abide" means to "remain" (and is often translated that way), it seems to me that someone can be in Christ, but can choose to not remain. I don't know how someone who is in Christ is not saved, and it appears to me from what Christ says they can at some point not remain in him, and the result appears to me to be "not saved".

There is a book by Bruce Wilkinson "Secrets of the Vine" that would do you a world of good to read.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Since my salvation is based upon my belief, and my continued belief and righteous living,

then it only makes sense doesn't it that any future unbelief (or unrighteous living) will cause my salvation to cease?

 

[golfjack]

reply

How do you guys interpret Heb. 10:26-30 and Heb. 6:4-6? And Heb. 9:12? It seems to me that the only way one can lose their salvation is to committ the unpardonable sin mentioned in Heb. 10:26. Notice it says sin and not a bunch of sins. It it were a bunch of sins, then we might just as well throw out 1John 1:9. Also Heb 9:12 tells me that even unconfessed sin will not send us to hell.


Peace, Golfjack:laugh: :saint:

 

[Nicholas25]

Hebrews is a very difficult book. A friend of mine says it's for Jews only and not we Gentiles.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Hebrews is a very difficult book. A friend of mine says it's for Jews only and not we Gentiles.

While the original audience are Jews (specifically Jewish Christians) -- hence the name of book, it is a big stretch (to say the least) that this book is not meant for Gentiles as well. I think the meaning of "all Scripture" really refers to "all Scripture" -- see 2 Timothy 3:16.

Having said that, it is important to understand the book through the lens of intended audience (ie context).

 

[Nicholas25]

I have always believed one could walk away from their relationship with Christ by putting their faith back into the world. Now I am trying to see if I can believe that someone does have unconditional eternal security. The thing that bothers me about conditional security is that most, if not all conditional security preachers say we can only be saved one time. After saying this they talk about someone leaving their salvation and then have to repent to return to their relationship with Christ. Is that not being saved again? I mean if one goes from being on their way to hell and then gets saved and one their way to heaven, and then backslides on their way to hell again before finally repenting and returning to the road to heaven, is that not being saved twice??

Forgive me for the incorrect sentence structure.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Actually according to the texts the way they use them, this would be impossible. Once a person comes to Christ, and turns away, they would be a lost cause.

Hmmmm. Seems like quite a few people turned away in the Bible, but they were certainly not a lost cause. David and Peter come to mind right off the bat.

David turned away and committed murder and adultery and God called him a 'man after his own heart'.

Peter turned away and denied he knew Christ and Jesus asked him to 'feed His sheep'.

Neither sound like a lost cause to me...

It would be impossible for Christ to die on the cross again. That's why it's impossible to lose one's salvation.

 

[Marcia]

Some explain that because they believe the reception of eternal life comes after the judgment -- at that point they are secure.

Others say it testifies to the faithfulness of God -- no one can 'snatch' you but that does not mean you cannot by an act of your will leave the hand of God.

You posted about this verse:
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Olivia, note what the words say. They clearly have nothing to do with what happens after the judgment nor does it have to do with the faithfulness of God. Jesus meant what he said -- we need to take the plain meaning of the text, especially when it's supported by other passages.

Why would Jesus say something misleading, to make people think he gives eternal life but actually it can be taken away?

Also, in John 20 it says that "these things are written so that you know you have eternal life."

"Have," as in present tense.

 

[Marcia]

Romans 13:11 says that our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed, which makes me conclude that it is again something to come in the future.

Salvation in this passage does not mean salvation from being lost, but deliverance. This has to do with expecting Jesus and the complete redemption that comes with that. Notice what the previous verses say -- about being in subjection to the rulers. This is because the rulers were pagan and hostile to Christians. Paul is encouraging them to live out their faith, knowing deliverance is coming. The constant expectation of Christ's return runs throughout the NT.

Paul says that he is working out his salvation in fear and trembling, which I think again implies something in the future or he wouldn't be 'working it out'. And there is a reference in Phillipians I think where he says he has not yet obtained the prize that Christ took hold of for him so he keeps working toward the goal.

This does not meant working for salvation. He says working out salvation in the sense we already have it but we there is the living out the the life to be worked out. In other words, we don't take being a Christian lightly nor expect a bed of roses. And remember, many of the early Christian reading these books were being persecuted. It was tempting to deny being a Christian when you knew you were going to get tortured or killed in a grisly way.

Note the next statement after this one:
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure

God is at work in them - they are saved.

 

[annsni]

Paul says that he is working out his salvation in fear and trembling, which I think again implies something in the future or he wouldn't be 'working it out'. And there is a reference in Phillipians I think where he says he has not yet obtained the prize that Christ took hold of for him so he keeps working toward the goal.

Let's read the entire thought:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

See that "FOR it is God"? That "for" speaks of a condition here. God works IN us do will and to do of His good pleasure and so because of this, we are to work out our own salvation. Work it out. Make it active. Not that we're earning our salvation but because of our salvation, we are doing the works that go along with it. Read the entire passage in context and it makes much more sense.