Can you lose your salvation?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: This is double talk and error.

HP: Logic implies that something cannot be A and not A at the same time and in the same sense. Logic does NOT imply that something can be A and not A at the same time in 'differing' senses.

It is not double talk nor is it in error. Your failure to understand is due to your illogical insistence that a word cannot be used in two differing senses without incurring a contradiction. Your failure to comprehend the truth of this matter in no wise necessitates error or double talk.

Just as Scripture states that faith without works is dead being alone does not in any way contradict the Scripture that states that we are saved by faith without works. The two passages are speaking of works in two distinct senses and usages of the word ‘works.’ Works again can be thought of in the sense of ‘not without which’ used by James, and ‘that for the sake of’ that is used when it states that we are saved apart from works. Yes Steaver, it can be said without contradiction, double talk, or error that we are saved without works yet cannot be saved apart from works. One speaks directly to the grounds of salvation which is apart from human effort and the other speaks to the conditions of salvation that clearly involve the intents of man, without which no one shall be saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: This is error. Here the apostle is teaching us to examine ourselves. Said faith does not save. True faith generates good works. James is not teaching things we must do to be saved, but rather things that should be happening if one has truly been born of God.

HP: What on earth are you talking about? Examine ourselves for what? According to you it is all of God and works of necessity follow salvation, much like water drips from a melting icicle. If one would take careful notice, an icicle would be wasting its time in the warming rays of the sun seeing if it is producing drips of water. No examination is needed to see to this necessitated end.

Either you are saved and have works or you have never been saved according to you. Examining yourself would have as much merit as to examine yourself to see whether or not you are breathing to determine if you ever were really born.

You are correct in that our faith has no merit to save. Neither does our repentance have any merit to save. No one is or ever has argued otherwise to my knowledge. The sufferings and blood of Jesus ALONE have any merit to save. We are saved due to the grace and mercy of God. Nothing we can or will do can merit salvation. Still yet, there are some things we must do, without which no one shall be saved. The merit of the cross has the power to save all, yet none will be saved apart from the formed intents of repentance, faith and continued obedience to Gods Word, works man's will is indeed involved in.

The apostle is warning us to examine ourselves, to see if in fact we have fulfilled the conditions of salvation God has mandated for us to fulfill. Obedience to the end is yet another requirement of seeing our salvation come to full and final fruition. Those who claim to have faith yet are not walking in obedience are deceived and as such on the wrong road to eternal life. James is warning us to examine our lives to see if in fact the faith we say we have is saving faith, faith that is active in producing evidence that it is the faith that saves. Many today claim to have faith, and loudly proclaim that once in faith always in faith, but the apostle is trying to faithfully warn each and every one to examine their lives and intents of the heart, to see if in fact their faith is the faith that will find us in Christ in the end. We all would do well in allowing the Holy Spirit to use this passage to reveal to our hearts any deception that might be lurking within us, trying to bolster false hope of meaningless professions when in fact we might not be in possession of saving faith at all. Deception is real. Let it not be named once among us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let's be honest for a minute. Any talk of examining ourselves is preposterous in light of the clearly stated position of those adhering to OSAS on this board. What would examination prove?? If you say that you have examined yourself and find yourself pure before God, those holding to OSAS would call you a liar. If you find yourself impure in the eyes of God those holding to OSAS would tell you that there is none clean before God, that all are sinners and liars and that we always do find ourselves doing that which we should not and failing to do that which we should.

Examination oh examination! Where art thou oh examination? For what earthly purpose could thou even exist??

 

[steaver]

Examination oh examination! Where art thou oh examination? For what earthly purpose could thou even exist??

I only reitterated the word of God. Do you mock Paul who told the sinning Corinthian Christians to examine themselves to see if Jesus Christ was in them (regeneration, born again, saved) ?

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[steaver]

HP: Logic implies that something cannot be A and not A at the same time and in the same sense. Logic does NOT imply that something can be A and not A at the same time in 'differing' senses.

Your own logic proves your error.

HP: Nothing we can or will do can merit salvation. Still yet, there are some things we must do, without which no one shall be saved.

A = Salvation/Saved

Salvation (A) cannot be unmerited (Nothing we can do) and merited (some things we must do) at the same time.

There are not two "senses" of salvation. Salvation is either by grace without works or by works. You want to play both doctrines in some sort of wierd play with words.

You stand alone on this board with this "senses" speach and it is found nowhere in scripture.

True faith produces good works. No good works is evidence of no true faith. No "senses" taught in scripture, by grace are ye saved. Good works are evidence of faith.

Good works do not save in ANY sense. There is no such thing as a believer without good works. Good works is an attribute of a believer.

So you could say that if a man has no good works he will not be saved (only because it proves he has no faith), but you cannot say good works will save a man. Faith and works go hand in hand but only the faith justifies the man and the works justifies the faith.

The way you try to teach this truth is only confusion to the hearer. It leads the hearer to believe that he must work for his salvation.

:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: There are not two "senses" of salvation.

HP: You are fighting as one that beateth the air when you are fighting notions no one has raised. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Let's be honest for a minute. Any talk of examining ourselves is preposterous in light of the clearly stated position of those adhering to OSAS on this board. What would examination prove??

What could it prove?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

If you say that you have examined yourself and find yourself pure before God, those holding to OSAS would call you a liar.

Would they? I have examined myself and I am pure before God. (1John 1:9)
I look for the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
--The Bible declares me to be pure; you have no say in the matter!

If you find yourself impure in the eyes of God those holding to OSAS would tell you that there is none clean before God, that all are sinners and liars and that we always do find ourselves doing that which we should not and failing to do that which we should.

Those that hold to OSAS say those verses describe the unsaved. The saved are declared righteous before God. They are justified--just as if they have never sinned. God doesn't look upon their sin; He sees only the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
I do not find myself impure before God, however.

Even the OT was clear on this matter:
Psalms 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?
by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
--And I do take heed to His Word. (to cleanse means to make pure).

Examination oh examination! Where art thou oh examination? For what earthly purpose could thou even exist??

Perhaps you should ask that question to yourself in a more thoughtful and objective way.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Would they? I have examined myself and I am pure before God. (1John 1:9)

HP: Did you not say that all men are liars? Well, I am certainly in the mood to let bygones be bygones and move right along into the realm of righteous men behaving righteously. That is indeed a wonderful testimony of heart purity. :thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: Did you not say that all men are liars? Well, I am certainly in the mood to let bygones be bygones and move right along into the realm of righteous men behaving righteously. That is indeed a wonderful testimony of heart purity. :thumbs:

All men are liars. I don't take the statement back.
All men are sinners.
I am a sinner.
The difference between me and the unsaved sinner is that I am a sinner saved by grace (but a sinner, nevertheless).

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

No one can say they have not sinned, and no one can say they have not lied.

As far as my salvation is concerned the Bible says:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--There is no condemnation--none.
I stand: pure, holy, uncondemned, righteous before God, clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I am eternally secure in his hand.
I am one of his sheep. He knows my voice and I follow him. No one or nothing can pluck me out of his hand. I have been given eternal life, and can never perish.
These are the promises that Christ has given me.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Let's be honest for a minute. Any talk of examining ourselves is preposterous in light of the clearly stated position of those adhering to OSAS on this board. What would examination prove?? If you say that you have examined yourself and find yourself pure before God, those holding to OSAS would call you a liar. If you find yourself impure in the eyes of God those holding to OSAS would tell you that there is none clean before God, that all are sinners and liars and that we always do find ourselves doing that which we should not and failing to do that which we should.

Examination oh examination! Where art thou oh examination? For what earthly purpose could thou even exist??

GE:
Yes, let us for a moment be honest, and give John Owen a chance to say something,

"It is supposed that sin doth still abide in and dwell with believers; for so is the meaning of the words: "That sin which is in you shall not have dominion over you;" that is, none of them who are not sensible of it, who groan not to be delivered from it, as the apostle doth, Rom. 7:42. Those who are otherwise minded know neither themselves nor what sin is, nor wherein the grace of the Gospel doth consist."
If that does not answer you, I don't think anything will.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE:
Yes, let us for a moment be honest, and give John Owen a chance to say something,

"It is supposed that sin doth still abide in and dwell with believers; for so is the meaning of the words: "That sin which is in you shall not have dominion over you;" that is, none of them who are not sensible of it, who groan not to be delivered from it, as the apostle doth, Rom. 7:42. Those who are otherwise minded know neither themselves nor what sin is, nor wherein the grace of the Gospel doth consist."
If that does not answer you, I don't think anything will.

HP: Try again GE. If one could find Romans 7:42 they would have to be reading that which of necessity would have been added to Scripture, and not Scripture itself. Someone needs to instruct John Owen as to the fact that chapter 7 of Romans ends with verse 25. :wavey: