Can you love your children more than God does?

[StefanM]

webdog posted this in another thread (now closed):

Where to begin! I will say one of the biggest reasons is the fact I potentially could love my children more than God does if they reject Him. The fact I can love another human being (I would give my life for my kids, and if they end up reprobate according to the L and Scripture about "no greater love...", Christ does not love nor did He die for them) more than the very attribute of God Himself is unheard of! They will of course appeal to this being merely an emotional response, and while it is partially, it is grounded on Scripture and God urging us to reason together with Him.

I have been ruminating on this for a while now. I am always receptive to new arguments that may challenge my positions, and this one has stuck with me for a week or so.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Skandelon]

I posed this question in regard to Paul's expression of love for his Jewish brethren in Romans 9 where he wished himself accursed for their sake. Did Paul, inspired by the HS to write these words, express a greater love for these rebellious hardened Israelites than that of God?

 

[Calv1]

I posed this question in regard to Paul's expression of love for his Jewish brethren in Romans 9 where he wished himself accursed for their sake. Did Paul, inspired by the HS to write these words, express a greater love for these rebellious hardened Israelites than that of God?

A different love to be sure. Same in a sense, but not as holy. It's amazing, even though to us now it seems reprehensible, but when we are in Heaven, we will be singing with the saints who say "How long oh Lord until you avenge the brothers". In other words we will hate the reprobate.

Everything about our children, family, etc. that we love is something that is from God. Any goodness that is in them is from God. When that day has passed, what we loved about them will be gone. There will be nothing lovable about them.

Tough question to be sure!

 

[StefanM]

I posed this question in regard to Paul's expression of love for his Jewish brethren in Romans 9 where he wished himself accursed for their sake. Did Paul, inspired by the HS to write these words, express a greater love for these rebellious hardened Israelites than that of God?

This is a good question.

 

[Skandelon]

A different love to be sure.

Can you show us the biblical proof that the love Paul expressed here is "different" and "not as holy?"

It's amazing, even though to us now it seems reprehensible, but when we are in Heaven, we will be singing with the saints who say "How long oh Lord until you avenge the brothers". In other words we will hate the reprobate.

Where do you find biblical support for this view?

 

[Calv1]

Can you show us the biblical proof that the love Paul expressed here is "different" and "not as holy?"

Calv1: Are you saying Pauls love was perfect as Gods is perfect? As immense as Gods?

Where do you find biblical support for this view?

Revelation 6:10

 

[webdog]

webdog posted this in another thread (now closed):


I have been ruminating on this for a while now. I am always receptive to new arguments that may challenge my positions, and this one has stuck with me for a week or so.

Thoughts anyone?

My thoughts are...has it been with you for a week due to the horrendous grammar? I just read it back for the first time and cringed Trying to type on a mini keyboard....and they call it a "smartphone" :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

Calv1: Are you saying Pauls love was perfect as Gods is perfect? As immense as Gods?

No, I'm asking if you believe God's love for those being hardened in Romans 9 is greater than Paul's expression of love for those same individuals?

I believe God's love is greater than Paul's love and obviously Paul's love is great because he wishes himself accursed for their sake and he does so writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 6:10

I agree with Clarke's commentary on this verse:

Verse 10. "And they cried with a loud voice" - That is, their blood, like that of Hebel, cried for vengeance; for we are not to suppose that there was any thing like a vindictive spirit in those happy and holy souls who had shed their blood for the testimony of Jesus. We sometimes say Blood cries for blood; that is, in the order of Divine justice, every murderer, and every murdering persecutor, shall be punished.

"O Lord" - Æo despothv? Sovereign Lord, supreme Ruler; one having and exercising unlimited and uncontrolled authority.

"Holy] In thy own nature, hating iniquity; And true] In all thy promises and threatenings; Dost thou not judge" - The persecutors; And avenge our blood] Inflict signal punishment; On them that dwell on the earth?] Probably meaning the persecuting Jews; they dwelt epi thv ghv, upon that land, a form of speech by which Judea is often signified in the New Testament.

 

[Calv1]

No, I'm asking if you believe God's love for those being hardened in Romans 9 is greater than Paul's expression of love for those same individuals?

Calv1; ? Are you asking if God loves those in whom His wrath abides?

I believe God's love is greater than Paul's love and obviously Paul's love is great because he wishes himself accursed for their sake and he does so writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


I agree with Clarke's commentary on this verse:

You really do? With Adam Clarke? Do you think that the Saints in Heaven love Gods enemies? God hates them, they are under His sure wrath, yet the Saints are of a different mind?

We couldn't disagree more.

 

[Skandelon]

Calv1, do you know of and respect Dr. John MacArthur?

 

[Calv1]

Calv1, do you know of and respect Dr. John MacArthur?

Yes, and I agree with him much of the time.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, and I agree with him much of the time.

Good, then maybe you are familiar with his writings concerning the tendency of some Calvinistic believers to become "hyper" by suggesting that God doesn't genuinely love and call all mankind to be saved? I asked because your post seems to suggest you are tending in that direction, but maybe I misunderstood you, or is that a point in which you differ with MacArthur?

 

[Calv1]

Good, then maybe you are familiar with his writings concerning the tendency of some Calvinistic believers to become "hyper" by suggesting that God doesn't genuinely love and call all mankind to be saved? I asked because your post seems to suggest you are tending in that direction, but maybe I misunderstood you, or is that a point in which you differ with MacArthur?

It is not "Hyper" to teach what the bible teachs. Gods wrath is upon some men, and He hates these men. The only "Love" they receive is that they are still receiving breath.

You aren't saying God loves all men are you? Did not God HATE Esau before he was born, or is that not in scripture? And yes, the Greek word is "Hate".

 

[Skandelon]

It is not "Hyper" to teach what the bible teachs. Gods wrath is upon some men, and He hates these men. The only "Love" they receive is that they are still receiving breath.

You aren't saying God loves all men are you? Did not God HATE Esau before he was born, or is that not in scripture? And yes, the Greek word is "Hate".

Can I correctly deduce by this reply that you disagree with MacArthur on this point, or are you just unfamiliar with his teaching in this regard?

 

[Calv1]

Can I correctly deduce by this reply that you disagree with MacArthur on this point, or are you just unfamiliar with his teaching in this regard?

I don't really know or care what John MacArthur is saying, what does it have to do with anything? Did you have a direct question?

What about my direct questions? .

 

[Skandelon]

I don't really know or care what John MacArthur is saying, what does it have to do with anything? Did you have a direct question?

I am attempting to ascertain how aware you are of the different scholarly views on this subject there are within the ranks of Calvinism. Having been a Calvinist I realize that you would be more open to learning from another respected Calvinist than you would be from a non-Calvinist like me, who you do not know. I think it might serve you well to read MacArthur's work on this point regarding the love of God. That is all.

He and his ghost writer (Phil Johnson) make a solid argument that those who don't hold to this view are in what some refer to as "hyper-Calvinism" (that which goes beyond what Calvin himself actually taught and believed).

What about my direct questions? .

I believe those questions would be answered best by someone like MacArthur because you would be more likely to hear them and respect his answer since he replies from a true Calvinistic perspective.

You can read his perspective HERE>

Below is an excerpt from that article. I hope it helps:

I am troubled by the tendency of some-often young people newly infatuated with Reformed doctrine-who insist that God cannot possibly love those who never repent and believe. I encounter that view, it seems, with increasing frequency.

The argument inevitably goes like this: Psalm 7:11 tells us "God is angry with the wicked every day." It seems reasonable to assume that if God loved everyone, He would have chosen everyone unto salvation. Therefore, God does not love the non-elect. Those who hold this view often go to great lengths to argue that John 3:16 cannot really mean God loves the whole world.

Perhaps the best-known argument for this view is found the unabridged edition of an otherwise excellent book, The Sovereignty of God, by A. W. Pink. Pink wrote, "God loves whom He chooses. He does not love everybody." [1] He further argued that the word world in John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world…") "refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from 'the world of the ungodly.'"[2]

Pink was attempting to make the crucial point that God is sovereign in the exercise of His love. The gist of his argument is certainly valid: It is folly to think that God loves all alike, or that He is compelled by some rule of fairness to love everyone equally. Scripture teaches us that God loves because He chooses to love (Deuteronomy 7:6-7), because He is loving (God is love, 1 John 4:8), not because He is under some obligation to love everyone the same.

Nothing but God's own sovereign good pleasure compels Him to love sinners. Nothing but His own sovereign will governs His love. That has to be true, since there is certainly nothing in any sinner worthy of even the smallest degree of divine love.

Unfortunately, Pink took the corollary too far. The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God's attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that those mercies flow out of God's boundless love? It is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners.

We must understand that it is God's very nature to love. The reason our Lord commanded us to love our enemies is "in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous" (Matthew 5:45). Jesus clearly characterized His Father as One who loves even those who purposefully set themselves at enmity against Him.

-John MacArthur

 

[Calv1]

I am attempting to ascertain how aware you are of the different scholarly views on this subject there are within the ranks of Calvinism. Having been a Calvinist I realize that you would be more open to learning from another respected Calvinist than you would be from a non-Calvinist like me, who you do not know. I think it might serve you well to read MacArthur's work on this point regarding the love of God. That is all.

He and his ghost writer (Phil Johnson) make a solid argument that those who don't hold to this view are in what some refer to as "hyper-Calvinism" (that which goes beyond what Calvin himself actually taught and believed).


I believe those questions would be answered best by someone like MacArthur because you would be more likely to hear them and respect his answer since he replies from a true Calvinistic perspective.

You can read his perspective HERE>

Below is an excerpt from that article. I hope it helps:

Thanks for the suggestions, but just some of my favorite writers who I have studied over the years, Edwards, Warfield, Owen, Pink, MacArthur, Piper, White, on and on and on.

 

[Skandelon]

Thanks for the suggestions, but just some of my favorite writers who I have studied over the years, Edwards, Warfield, Owen, Pink, MacArthur, Piper, White, on and on and on.

Oh good, then you know of the differing perspectives among even Calvinists with regard to the subject of God's love for the reprobate? Good to know that you understand those things.

So, why is it that you disagree with MacArthur's arguments on this matter? Since Calvin doesn't teach what you believe regarding God's love for the world, do you prefer the term "Hyper-Calvinist" or some other term to describe your theological perspective?

 

[Calv1]

I am attempting to ascertain how aware you are of the different scholarly views on this subject there are within the ranks of Calvinism. Having been a Calvinist I realize that you would be more open to learning from another respected Calvinist than you would be from a non-Calvinist like me, who you do not know. I think it might serve you well to read MacArthur's work on this point regarding the love of God. That is all.

He and his ghost writer (Phil Johnson) make a solid argument that those who don't hold to this view are in what some refer to as "hyper-Calvinism" (that which goes beyond what Calvin himself actually taught and believed).


I believe those questions would be answered best by someone like MacArthur because you would be more likely to hear them and respect his answer since he replies from a true Calvinistic perspective.

You can read his perspective HERE>

Below is an excerpt from that article. I hope it helps:

Thanks for that, but I disagree with MacArthur strongly in this regard. He has no scriptural support for his position, it seems a watered down message to make something he wishes to believe.

We have to ask "What is love". Is not love seeking the good of the other? Does God seek the good of the reprobate? Or is He allowing them to "Store up wrath"?

Berkoff put it this way, "When God's love falls upon imperfection, it is frustrated, this frustration becomes hatred". God can love us from before the foundation of the world, for even though we are not perfect, He knew and did positionally make us perfect.

 

[Calv1]

Oh good, then you know of the differing perspectives among even Calvinists with regard to the subject of God's love for the reprobate? Good to know that you understand those things.

So, why is it that you disagree with MacArthur's arguments on this matter? Since Calvin doesn't teach what you believe regarding God's love for the world, do you prefer the term "Hyper-Calvinist" or some other term to describe your theological perspective?

Calvin made many mistakes, and no one writer has everything 100% correct all of the time.

I am not a hyper-Calvinist, I reject that, and you shouldn't suggest it. If you really understood Calvinism you'd never ask me that.

I am in good company however, AW Pink, BB Warfield, Jonathan Edwards, John Piper, on and on, but even if I wasn't, should I just fall in line like everyone else?

The way I see my walk is that I can simply believe what everyone else does, follow traditions and everyone will like me, or I can be true to God's word whether I understand it or not, be true to God's word and be criticized. I gladly pick the latter.

The Church is almost not a Church anymore, we are not concerned with glorifying God, but appealing to the sensitivities of the world. Like my friend said "There's not enough gospel in the Church to even reject it".

Anyways, I'm dead tired, goodnight.