Can you really BLAME them?

[HeirofSalvation]

John 3:16 – for God so loved the world. John Calvin pointed out that the word κόσμος refers to all of mankind – all humans indiscriminately. The non-elect are guilty because Christ died for all men, to include the non-elect. “God used a general term, both to invite indiscriminately all to share in life and to cut off every excuse form unbelievers”. The significance to the author of John using the term ‘world’ is that, "although there is nothing in the world deserving of God’s favor, he nevertheless shows he is favorable to the whole would when he calls all without exception to the faith of Christ.” (Calvin, John 1-10).

Another illustration of Calvin’s view is to be found in the explanation of Matthew 26:28: “…This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Calvin says: “Under the name of many he designates not a part of the world only, but the whole human race.”

Now we are getting somewhere....only this is not "Calvinism" as it is used today....this implies an unlimited atonement..so far then..you have surrendered the "L" in TULIP it appears.

John Calvin simply accepted many of those issues. Luther ascribed it to “mystery,” even going so far as stating that it was not proper to systemize the mind of God. Spurgeon, as you have less than adequately stated, did much the same – he described them as seemingly parallel lines

In other words; they DUNNO...that is not an answer of any kind-they give up.

2 and 3 are false Scripturally and are also denied by Calvinistic Soteriology (depending on, of course, the Calvinist). And of course, many don't consider Calvin a Calvinist.

2 and 3 are indeed false Scripturally, hence....Calvinism...as it is commonly understood today is false.

 

[agedman]

Yep, I can blame the reprobate.

When I sit on a jury and overlook the upbringing, the background culture, the status, the education, the mental state, the hygiene, and a host of other unknowns, to bring a verdict of guilty in a court case, why cannot God who experiences no "unknowns?"

God's law makes no excuses. God's law is perfect. God's law will never cease to be the law. God established the law in every person born.

It certainly is NOT God's fault the sinner sins. To even attempt to blame God would be an attempt at destroying the Sovereignty and Divine Right of the King of Kings.

That is why God said, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

It is God's "Divine Right" of choice. God is the Sovereign and cannot be blamed.

The blame is upon the reprobate.

If the depraved are angry, it isn't because God has rejected them, it is confirmation that evil has rejected God.

I have read a page of responses to this post and was amazed.

I answered the questions of the OP, but seems that folks didn't like the answers.

Some claimed I posted calvinistic view - yet, nowhere in the post is there even a hint of that view.

I could read arminian view in to the post just a well.

The fact is that God is not to blame.

The fact is that in BOTH views (calvinistic and arminian) God is not to be blamed.

The fact is BOTH views (calvinistic and arminian) hold man as totally sinful, totally lost, totally responsible and accountable for their condition, and totally incapable of coming to God in salvation without God being the author.

The fact is BOTH views (calvinistic and arminian) hold God as Sovereign and Divinely Right in any matter He chooses.

The fact is Both views (calvinistic and arminian) hold some form of limit on the reconciliation between God and man.

The fact is the reprobate will go to hell with no one to blame but them self.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have read a page of responses to this post and was amazed.

I answered the questions of the OP, but seems that folks didn't like the answers.

Some claimed I posted calvinistic view - yet, nowhere in the post is there even a hint of that view.

I could read arminian view in to the post just a well.

The fact is that God is not to blame.

The fact is that in BOTH views (calvinistic and arminian) God is not to be blamed.

The fact is BOTH views (calvinistic and arminian) hold man as totally sinful, totally lost, totally responsible and accountable for their condition, and totally incapable of coming to God in salvation without God being the author.

The fact is BOTH views (calvinistic and arminian) hold God as Sovereign and Divinely Right in any matter He chooses.

The fact is Both views (calvinistic and arminian) hold some form of limit on the reconciliation between God and man.

The fact is the reprobate will go to hell with no one to blame but them self.

:wavey::thumbsup::applause::applause: you have posted truth here.

 

[JonC]

Even though you still havent answered the question of why God chose you and gave not even a chance to others, I do appreciate your post here.


Even though I do disagree with you, I do respect your beliefs.

John

Calvinism, Arminianism, Amyraldianism , and any other belief regarding the mind of God in salvation share one distinction – that is that they represent human understanding . The three listed are Scriptural, but they by necessity incorporate reasoning (which is where disagreements arise). It would be arrogant for me to believe that my understanding here should be yours, and if I advocated that position I would be advocating a “new gospel.” But I’ve found that in trying to understand the views of others, I also better understand my own position and certainly I better understand the issues of the debate.

So, yes, we do disagree at points, but my confidence in my own understanding does not exceed my faith. I am not blind to the weaknesses of my own position – I hold them with the understanding that they are inadequate when it comes to encompassing the entire work of God and are not potentially without error. But still, it is my understanding. The answer to the question is that I do not believe that God does not genuinely offer salvation to the non-elect. Scripture clearly states that He does.

 

[seekingthetruth]

:wavey::thumbsup::applause::applause: you have posted truth here.

really?

If a person is denied even the choice of redemption, is he really to blame?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Calvinism, Arminianism, Amyraldianism , and any other belief regarding the mind of God in salvation share one distinction – that is that they represent human understanding . The three listed are Scriptural, but they by necessity incorporate reasoning (which is where disagreements arise). It would be arrogant for me to believe that my understanding here should be yours, and if I advocated that position I would be advocating a “new gospel.” But I’ve found that in trying to understand the views of others, I also better understand my own position and certainly I better understand the issues of the debate.

So, yes, we do disagree at points, but my confidence in my own understanding does not exceed my faith. I am not blind to the weaknesses of my own position – I hold them with the understanding that they are inadequate when it comes to encompassing the entire work of God and are not potentially without error. But still, it is my understanding. The answer to the question is that I do not believe that God does not genuinely offer salvation to the non-elect. Scripture clearly states that He does.

I agree with you that God offers salvation to everyone....but Calvinisim teaches otherwise.

Calvininism denies the offer. In fact, with Calvinism there is no offer at all. If God chose you before birth then you go to heaven.

If God rejected you before birth then you are going to Hell no matter how much you plead to Him for forgiveness....God will not hear you.

The God of Calvinism is a cruel God....and not the God I worship.

John

 

[JonC]

I agree with you that God offers salvation to everyone....but Calvinisim teaches otherwise.

Calvininism denies the offer. In fact, with Calvinism there is no offer at all. If God chose you before birth then you go to heaven.

If God rejected you before birth then you are going to Hell no matter how much you plead to Him for forgiveness....God will not hear you.

The God of Calvinism is a cruel God....and not the God I worship.

John

The “God of Calvinism” is the same God that you serve – the Calvinistic understanding of God is what you see as flawed.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree with you that God offers salvation to everyone....but Calvinisim teaches otherwise.

Wrong...calvinism offers the gospel to all.

Calvininism denies the offer. In fact, with Calvinism there is no offer at all. If God chose you before birth then you go to heaven. goes to heaven

Anyone chosen by God goes to heaven.Calvinism offers the gospel to all, to keep repeating this falsehood...is bearing false witness


If God rejected you before birth then you are going to Hell no matter how much you plead to Him for forgiveness....God will not hear you.

if God rejects someone...they will never desire salvation


The God of Calvinism is a cruel God....and not the God I worship.

John

The God of Calvinism is a cruel God....and not the God I worship.

The God of calvinism is the biblical God...if you do not worship him...you are not going to heaven. You should not make such an ignorant statement.


You might not understand the teaching, but you should never deny the biblical God.

 

[Forest]

I agree with you that God offers salvation to everyone....but Calvinisim teaches otherwise.

Calvininism denies the offer. In fact, with Calvinism there is no offer at all. If God chose you before birth then you go to heaven.

If God rejected you before birth then you are going to Hell no matter how much you plead to Him for forgiveness....God will not hear you.

The God of Calvinism is a cruel God....and not the God I worship.

John

The natural man would never plead to him for forgiveness according to 1 Cor 2:14. I have said many times that if you do not understand the depravity of man, you will never understand the grace of God.

 

[JonC]

The God of calvinism is the biblical God...if you do not worship him...you are not going to heaven. You should not make such an ignorant statement.


You might not understand the teaching, but you should never deny the biblical God.

seekingthetruth is correct that there are some Calvinist (and some here on this board) that do deny that God offers salvation to everyone - so I don't think that it's a lack of understanding (although it is perhaps lumping all into one group - maybe the largest group) - but simply rejecting what is often presented. Calvin didn’t hold that view but, as HeirofSalvation points out, Calvinism is not necessarily the teachings of Calvin. Calvinism has, here anyway, been reduced down to the five points and these points are debated even among those who call themselves “Calvinists.” It isn’t hard to find Calvinists who believe that God only offers salvation to the elect, and it isn’t hard to find Calvinists who believe that God offers salvation to everyone.

 

[Forest]

The elect are the collective group of Christians we call the Church.

If you apply the word 'elect' or "chosen" to yourself by virtue of presdination then you dont understand the Bible at all.

If you repent and are saved then you are one of the elect.

John

Christ is God's only Son. The elect that he choose before the foundation of the world, he predestginated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,Eph 1:4-5. Christ paid the price for the adoption of God's elect upon the cross, John 6:37-41, and said that he would not lose one of them, but raise them all up at the last day, so all that Christ died for will live with him in heaven, which proves that he did not die for all mankind.

 

[Iconoclast]

seekingthetruth is correct that there are some Calvinist (and some here on this board) that do deny that God offers salvation to everyone

I know of no biblical calvinist who does not believe in offering the gospel to all men.

 

[JonC]

I know of no biblical calvinist who does not believe in offering the gospel to all men.

A "biblical Calvinist" wouldn't reject the universal offer of salvation - but are you saying that you know of no person who considers themself a Calvinist who believes that salvation is not is genuinely offered to all men?

 

[seekingthetruth]

The natural man would never plead to him for forgiveness according to 1 Cor 2:14. I have said many times that if you do not understand the depravity of man, you will never understand the grace of God.

As i said in a previous post, the Calvinist will say that I 'dont understand'

Yes I do understand, it is you that adds to the gospel. not me.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

I know of no biblical calvinist who does not believe in offering the gospel to all men.

You have stated many times that God chose you before you were born

Why do you change your story now?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Christ is God's only Son. The elect that he choose before the foundation of the world, he predestginated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,Eph 1:4-5. Christ paid the price for the adoption of God's elect upon the cross, John 6:37-41, and said that he would not lose one of them, but raise them all up at the last day, so all that Christ died for will live with him in heaven, which proves that he did not die for all mankind.

So?

You are special?

God bless you

John

 

[Iconoclast]

You have stated many times that God chose you before you were born

Why do you change your story now?

John

John...that is correct. Everyone who gets saved was chosen In Christ before the world was.Jesus came to live and die for them.

I have not and will not change my story. What you are not seeing is as has been often explained....although election is doth biblical and certain....we do not know who the elect are. We know they are scattered throughout the world so we send missionaries worldwide...jn 3 :16 the preaching of the cross will draw all men worldwide...as the Spirit quickens them.

John...that is why I urge you not to speak against the biblical God who saves His people worldwide. We preach to all men as Jesus commanded...the results belong to God.

 

[Iconoclast]

A "biblical Calvinist" wouldn't reject the universal offer of salvation - but are you saying that you know of no person who considers themself a Calvinist who believes that salvation is not is genuinely offered to all men?

Jonc

There are some who dispute the free offer of the gospel.In my judgement they are going beyond scripture, and doing the same thing that many non cals do here.

With any truth.....some come short of it......some go beyond it.

non cals come up short......hyper cals have gone beyond scripture.

Both are mistaken and need correction. The mainstream stay midline by adhereing to the confessions.
There are biblical brothers who both come up short, and who go beyond...and there are some who error who have missed Christ

 

[agedman]

really?

If a person is denied even the choice of redemption, is he really to blame?

John

But that REALLY isn't the question the OP is asking.

The question(s) asked in the OP is about whether or not the reprobate can blame God for being a rebellious reprobate.

The answer is NO.

All other discussion is nothing but distraction and human desire to place fault into some scheme labeled arminian or calvinian.

Again, BOTH arminianistic and calvinistic views have limited atonement.

Therefore, the OP question is faulty for even suggesting that the reprobate would be justified in blaming God.

The reprobate would have to blame them self for being a reprobate before they could even assume to lay fault in God's Sovereignty.

 

[convicted1]

John...that is correct. Everyone who gets saved was chosen In Christ before the world was.Jesus came to live and die for them.

I have not and will not change my story. What you are not seeing is as has been often explained....although election is doth biblical and certain....we do not know who the elect are. We know they are scattered throughout the world so we send missionaries worldwide...jn 3 :16 the preaching of the cross will draw all men worldwide...as the Spirit quickens them.

John...that is why I urge you not to speak against the biblical God who saves His people worldwide. We preach to all men as Jesus commanded...the results belong to God.

Brother,

I may not agree with everything you posted here, but I do love the graciousness in the manner of which you posted it. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: