Can you really BLAME them?

[Skandelon]

If Calvinism is true, can your really blame the non-elect reprobate for their being rebellious against God?

After all look at the facts of the matter:

1. God punished them for the sin of Adam by making them be born totally unable to repent even when invited by God to do so.
2. God didn't really love them (salvifically), in fact he hated them from birth (i.e. Esau).
3. God didn't grant them what they needed to be saved.
4. God predetermined they would spend an eternity being tortured in hell prior to their even being born.​

Can you really blame them for rebelling and hating that? Wouldn't you if you weren't chosen?

 

[Iconoclast]

If Calvinism is true, can your really blame the non-elect reprobate for their being rebellious against God?

After all look at the facts of the matter:

1. God punished them for the sin of Adam by making them be born totally unable to repent even when invited by God to do so.
2. God didn't really love them (salvifically), in fact he hated them from birth (i.e. Esau).
3. God didn't grant them what they needed to be saved.
4. God predetermined they would spend an eternity being tortured in hell prior to their even being born.​

Can you really blame them for rebelling and hating that? Wouldn't you if you weren't chosen?

Yes.....They are responsible to worship and serve God. They do not want to,they desire sin and wickedness.
3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

God is not unfair ,or unjust

 

[SolaSaint]

Maybe there is a difference between Calvinists and hyper-Calvinists, would you think?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

You cannot blame them, They were BORN utterly wicked, they were born depraved. They were born without the possibility of doing ANY good (acc. Calvinism). God had no intention whatsoever of ever bestowing any form of saving grace, enabling grace, irresistible grace, Grace Kelly grace or any form of grace (of any signifigance anyway). Personally, i have always thought given Calvinism it is rather unsporting for God to create the condemned, it were truly better that they had never been born. A lonely life outside of God's fellowship ending eternally in suffering and torment for doing that which they had no other option to do is their lot. But the blame, so called, is God's and God's alone. Unless you begin to redefine the meaning of words and use them in a sense which no other normal person would use them can it be placed anywhere else. :tear:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Maybe there is a difference between Calvinists and hyper-Calvinists, would you think?

Hyper Calvinist: logically consistent and unapologetic Calvinist
Calvinist: logically in-consistent Calvinist (no Reductios here please!)

 

[jonathan.borland]

If Calvinism is true, can your really blame the non-elect reprobate for their being rebellious against God?

Of course not. And that's just one reason why Calvinism isn't true.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Then again Skan, God's offer to repent Acc. Calvinism is at best a disingenuous one inasmuch as God has already Sovereignly decreed they not do so. If they were to repent (an impossibility) it would do them no good anyways as their sins were not paid for on the cross either.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes.....They are responsible to worship and serve God. They do not want to,they desire sin and wickedness.
3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

God is not unfair ,or unjust

Those poor 'innocent' sinners...can you really blame them? :wavey:

Maybe a Superhero will come save them, they're innocent you know, and they have rights too.

 

[quantumfaith]

Those poor 'innocent' sinners...can you really blame them? :wavey:

Maybe a Superhero will come save them, they're innocent you know, and they have rights too.

Thank you, I am a poor sinner, and I do have a superhero, his name is Jesus.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes.....They are responsible to worship and serve God.

I guess they are responsible to worship in the same way the stone are responsible to cry out, right? The only difference is that the stones won't feel the pain of burning for all eternity? Is that right? If not, how is it different specifically?

They do not want to,they desire sin and wickedness.

And why don't they WANT to? Why CAN'T they WANT to?

God is not unfair ,or unjust

That is not what the OP is about. It's about not blaming people who are born hated by God and destined for eternal torture for hating Him back. Wouldn't you hate someone who created you for torture so that He could be glorified?

 

[Aaron]

If Calvinism is true, can your really blame the non-elect reprobate for their being rebellious against God?

After all look at the facts of the matter:

1. God punished them for the sin of Adam by making them be born totally unable to repent even when invited by God to do so.
2. God didn't really love them (salvifically), in fact he hated them from birth (i.e. Esau).
3. God didn't grant them what they needed to be saved.
4. God predetermined they would spend an eternity being tortured in hell prior to their even being born.
​

Can you really blame them for rebelling and hating that? Wouldn't you if you weren't chosen?

Paul has already answered this, your arbitrary and self-contradicting reconstructions notwithstanding.

 

[Cypress]

That is not what the OP is about. It's about not blaming people who are born hated by God and destined for eternal torture for hating Him back. Wouldn't you hate someone who created you for torture so that He could be glorified?

I think I would unless my greatest desire was to be destroyed and tortured.

 

[Skandelon]

Maybe there is a difference between Calvinists and hyper-Calvinists, would you think?

Either you believe God has preselected a certain number of people to irresistibly save to the neglect of all the rest who He chose to punish with a Totally depraved nature from birth due to Adam's sin, or you don't.

 

[Skandelon]

Paul has already answered this, your arbitrary and self-contradicting reconstructions notwithstanding.

Question beg much?

You think Paul answers my question, but in reality Paul is answering a MUCH different question. He is answering the question about why God's Chosen ones (Israel) are being hardened in their rebellion while the unclean Gentiles (who weren't chosen by God) are being grafted in. You should study Romans 9 through 11 sometime. It is really interesting.

 

[Aaron]

In the words of The Gipper, "There you go again." Paul's meaning is clear. You just don't like it.

In another place, Paul mentions Esau. Whom does he represent?

 

[Skandelon]

In the words of The Gipper, "There you go again." Paul's meaning is clear. You just don't like it.

I don't like your false application, true. But I love the truth of Paul's actual intent.

In another place, Paul mentions Esau. Whom does he represent?

Esau represents all those of Israel who weren't chosen for a noble purposes in God's redemptive plan for humanity. Paul, an Israelite, was chosen for a noble purpose, just like Jacob was chosen for the noble purpose of being the lineage of Christ. Other Jewish Pharisees, who were just as rebellious as Paul, weren't chosen to be his apostle. Paul hadn't done anything good or bad to deserve being chosen to carry the message of redemption to the world. The other Pharisees were left in their rebellion, blinded by God, cut off from the vine, chosen for 'ignoble purposes.' It is this truth to which the reader objects.

But Paul explains God can take from the same lump of Israel and make vessels for noble purposes and others for common use, but later goes on to show that even those hardened in their rebellion may be 'provoked to envy' and saved if they 'leave their unbelief.'
Read Romans 11:14ff. It is all very clear.

 

[Iconoclast]

I guess they are responsible to worship in the same way the stone are responsible to cry out, right? The only difference is that the stones won't feel the pain of burning for all eternity? Is that right? If not, how is it different specifically?

And why don't they WANT to? Why CAN'T they WANT to?

That is not what the OP is about. It's about not blaming people who are born hated by God and destined for eternal torture for hating Him back. Wouldn't you hate someone who created you for torture so that He could be glorified?

The fact that Adam fell does not change mans responsibility before God.
Your constant questioning of God is troublesome;

like here;

hated by God and destined for eternal torture for hating Him back

. Wouldn't you hate someone who created you for torture so that He could be glorified

Your constant posting like this indicates you do not like a holy God punishing sin.This is a cause for concern.Are you okay with the judgement of God.

 

[Skandelon]

The fact that Adam fell does not change mans responsibility before God.
Your constant questioning of God is troublesome;

Again, this begs the question that your view properly represents God, the very point up for debate. Again, the LOWEST form of debate. We all know you think you know God better than us but continually pointing that out doesn't serve the purpose of an actual debate of the issues.

Your constant posting like this indicates you do not like a holy God punishing sin.This is a cause for concern.Are you okay with the judgement of God.

Of course I am. In fact, my sermon on Easter is on that very subject. In fact I'll provide the outline for you:

If indeed we have been created to worship God, why don’t more do it?
Answer: SIN: which is anything that prevents us from knowing and worshipping God... I. WE ALL HAVE SINNED:
Rom. 3:23: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God II. SIN IS SERIOUS:
Most people admit to being a sinner, but never really understand its seriousness...they never think they deserve HELL. A good God would never really send someone to an eternal hell.
That is because they don’t understand the last part of that verse: “fall short of the glory...”
III. WHY IS SIN SO SERIOUS: BECAUSE GOD IS SO GOOD.
In our justice system, the seriousness of a crime is measured not only by its inherent nature, but also by the one offended.
Furthermore, we readily accept the escalation of punishment, based on the status and position of the one offended. If that makes sense on a human level, why are we tempted to ignore the status and position of God?
A. GOD IS INFINITLY HOLY
Is not His NATURE eternally and infinitely HOLY? So, wouldn’t it bear to reason that for the punishment to fit the crime that it too must be eternal and infinitely severe? People who reject the concept of hell don’t understand this biblical truth.
Our sins (even the small ones) have offended an infinitely glorious and holy Being, and punishment must correspond to that offense.
B. GOD IS INFINTLY JUST: HE IS A PERFECT JUDGE (Illus: Watching Judge Judy and she lets a guilty person off...who is guilty?)
Proverbs 17:15 The LORD despises those who acquit the guilty and condemn the innocent.

“The vague and tenuous hope that God is too kind to punish the ungodly has become a deadly opiate for the consciences of millions.” AW Tozer

This is the BAD NEWS:
• We have all sinned
• Sin is really serious – eternally serious
• God is a righteous Judge who will never let the guilty go free
So, what is the GOOD NEWS? (Gospel, what EASTER is all about)
• There is a way to be saved.
o Saved from what? (sin, hell, satan?)
 Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:
While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
 This is why believers use to be called “God fearers.” (“Sinners in the hands of an angry God.”)
• How are we saved?
o Romans 10:9-10: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

 

[Skandelon]

Icon, I'm not questioning the judgement of God, I'm questing the claims of Calvinism and asking the question if you can really blame people for hating a God who hates them so much He has predetermined to torture them for all eternity? Tell me you wouldn't hate Him too if you were non-elect.

 

[Aaron]

I don't like your false application, true. But I love the truth of Paul's actual intent.

Esau represents all those of Israel who weren't chosen for a noble purposes in God's redemptive plan for humanity. Paul, an Israelite, was chosen for a noble purpose, just like Jacob was chosen for the noble purpose of being the lineage of Christ. Other Jewish Pharisees, who were just as rebellious as Paul, weren't chosen to be his apostle. Paul hadn't done anything good or bad to deserve being chosen to carry the message of redemption to the world. The other Pharisees were left in their rebellion, blinded by God, cut off from the vine, chosen for 'ignoble purposes.' It is this truth to which the reader objects.

But Paul explains God can take from the same lump of Israel and make vessels for noble purposes and others for common use, but later goes on to show that even those hardened in their rebellion may be 'provoked to envy' and saved if they 'leave their unbelief.'
Read Romans 11:14ff. It is all very clear.

Esau represents vain and profane persons, who despise their birthrights to satisfy their lusts. Surely you don't need the Scripture reference for that. It is all very clear.