It’s all over John’s Gospel account. If you need a list, I can make you one when I am next at my desktop.
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Can you still be christian if you reject Paul's teachings?
- Thread starter Abd al-masih
- Start date
It’s all over John’s Gospel account. If you need a list, I can make you one when I am next at my desktop.
I'm sure you will not accept it, but here it is anyway:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
This should be enough to save any person on earth that wants to be saved, so I will stop here, lest it be so long that none will bother to read it.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
This should be enough to save any person on earth that wants to be saved, so I will stop here, lest it be so long that none will bother to read it.
John DETAILS the resurrection and Christ states, “Blessed are those who have not seen, and believe.”
My Lord and my God did not shortchange anyone on how to be saved. He knows more about it than anyone. He IS the Saviour!
I highly appreciate Paul but I base my salvation in the Words of Christ. Paul reaffirms what Christ has told me, and that’s good, too.
Piers Plowman
New Member
A particular passage which I have been chewing over for the better part of last decade is the following:
Revelation 21:12-14
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
In the first half of the Book of Acts, we hear the mighty deeds wrought by the very Apostles introduced in the Four Gospels.
Notwithstanding, suddenly this man named Paul comes in and starts to confound the entire world with his evangelism and theology.
And the reader is left hanging: surely, we ought to be able to learn more as to the mighty theological import provided by the original twelve.
After all, the passage from Revelation shown above implies that the elect ought to stream forth from apostolic work by all 'twelve apostles'... not just by works by Paul.
Now, as it currently stands in my sight, great weight is placed toward Pauline theology (in western world, that is.) -- one may claim that this is ostensibly due to the fact that he was a man of letters rather than speech (2 Corinthians 10:10); after all, letters are what remain after time.
Whatever the fact of the matter may be, records of the significant theological impacts wrought by other (eleven? twelve? do we count Matthias here?) are relatively fewer.
But there are still data for us to chew over. Let us consider the following:
Let us consider Apostle John, as our brother @37818 has pointed out. (Assuming, of course, that John the Apostle is the one and the same as John the Evangelist.)
Johannine Theology has its distinctions from Pauline Theology. (cf. http://all4jesus.net/eng/paulvsjohn.pdf)
Paul speaks of Man of Sin, while John speaks of Antichrist.
Paul speaks of Justification, while John speaks of Eternal Life.
Paul speaks of Jesus as Lord, while John speaks of Jesus as God.
Another datapoint for us to consider is 'region of influence'. Each apostolic figure had his own region of influence. This may aid in determining the theological 'identity' associated with each apostolic figure, by reverse-analyzing the 'style' of Christianity emanating from each respective areas.
Now, an observant scholar of early Christian history will notice that Paul (nor John) held no position in particular of any sort of bishoprick in centers of early Christianity, in contrast with other major apostolic men. (We may have an opportunity to address this point further henceforth.)
In Paul's instance, this 'region of influence' spans from Jerusalem to Syria (e.g. Antioch) to Cilicia (e.g. Tarsus) to Galatia (e.g. Lystra) to Asia Minor (e.g. Ephesus), all the way to Achaia (Southeast Europe) (e.g. Corinth) and beyond, perhaps even to Spain (the westernmost).
As for John, the region of influence is concentrated in particular deeply into Asia Minor. Reader may recall that the Seven Churches of Asia addressed to in Revelation were all located in Asia Minor. (Assuming, of course, that John the Apostle is the one and the same as John of Patmos.)
Whenever 'regions of influence' coincide, there is tension between the theologies of the pertaining apostolic figures. (cf. Paul's confrontation of Peter.)
In our case of Paul and John, there is the Quartodecimanism controversy.
Should the date of Pascha be aligned with the day of Passover, or the Lord's day, the first day of the week?
Those who were evangelized by John and Philip adhere to quarta-decima (fourteenth of Nisan) dating, while those who were evangelized by Paul and Peter adhere to sunday dating.
Which is right?
Let us consider Apostle James, the son of Alphaeus.
Is he the same James as James the Just, the brother of our Lord?
Is he the same James as James the Younger, the brother of Joses?
Let us leave these questions hanging for now. Let us assume affirmative for the above two questions. Let us designate him as "James the Bishop of Jerusalem". (Accordingly, it appears to us that Jerusalem is his 'region of influence'.)
"'For they say that Peter and James (the Greater) and John after the ascension of our Saviour, as if also preferred by our Lord, strove not after honor, but chose James the Just bishop of Jerusalem.' -- Clement" -- Eusebius
(n.b. We note, however, that later generations assigns Bishoprick of Rome and Bishoprick of Antioch to Apostle Peter.)
In the second chapter of Galatians we read as to how Paul confronts Peter for 'dissimulation':
Galatians 2:11-16
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(Reader may remember that Galatians is at odds with 'works of the law'.)
But in Acts chapter twenty-one, we read as to how James persuades Paul to accomodate for 'zealous' Jews:
Acts 21:18-24
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
(We are assuming, of course, be it be warranted or unwarranted, that the James in this passage is the same James of our discussion at hand.)
We have another tension at hand here, due to collision of region of influence. Was it right for Paul to acquiesce to James? After all, a riot broke out regardless, despite James' best intentions.
Paul speaks of Justification by Faith; James focuses more on works.
Luther, in his mystic, poetic fashion, labeled Epistle of James (which we are assuming, of course, to be written by this same James the Bishop of Jerusalem) as 'Epistle of Straw', and sought to place further focus on Augustinian interpretation of Paul.
Calvin does not; in his scholastic, legalist fashion, Calvin opts for more, shall we say, *Covenantal* approach.
(As to the question of the degree of which James' views are feasible in today's circumstances is up for debate. As to exactly how Jews would be expected to keep the law after the destruction of the second temple... well, that's a topic for another time.)
(If Daniel managed to stay holy while in exile, so can anyone else, I fathom??)
I could go on, but more research is needed. In particular, analyzing the nature of the worship historically held in following places would provide further data:
Apostle Andrew: Georgia, Cyprus, Malta, Romania, Ukraine, Russia, Scotland, Spain
Apostle Simon the Zealot and Apostle Jude: Persia, Armenia, Lebanon, Africa (?)
Apostle Matthew: Ethiopia
Apostle Bartholomew: India, Armenia, Azerbaijan
Apostle Thomas: India
So to answer our brother @Reynolds: we poor (?) men of twenty-first century rely primarily on Paul's exposition on salvation because, (humanly speaking,) that's the best qualified data we have. It does not rule out that other Christians from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. centuries were taught and sought to live by a plan of salvation that may perhaps be distinct from what Paul exposits. There *are* indeed twelve gates to the New Temple, after all.
(And there are further apostolic men as well, such as Barnabas, Silas, Mark, Ananias, etc. Even more 'gates' to consider.)
37818
Well-Known Member
Huh. Too many points of argument. Your points of difficulty are not clear to me. What issue do you want me first to address?
Both Paul and John present Christ as both as Lord being a man and being God by being our sole access to God.
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I'm amazed at the direction this thread took. John specifically stated that his Gospel was written with the purpose of telling people how to believe in Christ: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (John 20:31).
In Japan I put together a "John's Road" to use in personal evangelism. I saw Japanese people get saved through it, by God's grace.
Paul taught the exact same Gospel as John.
In Japan I put together a "John's Road" to use in personal evangelism. I saw Japanese people get saved through it, by God's grace.
Paul taught the exact same Gospel as John.
I see you got to John 20:31 before me. Good job!
John's Map to Heaven
These are the verses I used for personal evangelism sometimes in Japan. As can be seen, the Gospel is clear and no different from Paul's Gospel.
1:1-3 Jesus is God
3:16 God loves you
3:19-20 We are sinners and lost
19:17-18 Christ died on the cross for us
20:6-8 and rose again
1:12 We must receive Him into our lives as Savior
10:27-30 Assurance of salvation
These are the verses I used for personal evangelism sometimes in Japan. As can be seen, the Gospel is clear and no different from Paul's Gospel.
1:1-3 Jesus is God
3:16 God loves you
3:19-20 We are sinners and lost
19:17-18 Christ died on the cross for us
20:6-8 and rose again
1:12 We must receive Him into our lives as Savior
10:27-30 Assurance of salvation
There is a Japanese NT version that divides the writings of Paul into two sections: "The Epistles of Paul," and "Epistles Purporting to be by Paul." It was translated by liberals. The idea that one can reject Paul's teaching, even some of it, is thus a liberal idea and false.
Someone might reject Paul's writings at salvation, but the Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth (John 16:13), just as the early Christians decided the canon by the Holy Spirit's urging. So someone believing in Christ but rejecting Paul will come around soon to accepting Paul's doctrine by the leading of the Spirit. Someone not led by the Spirit thusly is lost.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
All,
This reply is not meant to be harsh...it's meant to be sobering.
As much as I'd like for everyone I know to be saved, and as much as I'd like for everyone who professes Christ to actually be who they claim to be, I also see the Bible teaching that there are many who are not saved who think that they are.
Here are some words regarding His people that come to my mind:
"...It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." ( Matthew 4:4 )
" ...It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. " ( Luke 4:4 )
" ...man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live." ( Deuteronomy 8:3 )
This reply is not meant to be harsh...it's meant to be sobering.
As much as I'd like for everyone I know to be saved, and as much as I'd like for everyone who professes Christ to actually be who they claim to be, I also see the Bible teaching that there are many who are not saved who think that they are.
Here are some words regarding His people that come to my mind:
"...It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." ( Matthew 4:4 )
" ...It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. " ( Luke 4:4 )
" ...man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live." ( Deuteronomy 8:3 )
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Christians, those who have been saved by the Lord and sanctified by the blood of Christ, are characterized by many things;
Not the least of which is that they hear and believe every word of God...
They may not understand it right away, but they very definitely are willing to receive it.
The Lord specifically states one of the evidences of His working in someone:
" He that is of God heareth God's words..." ( John 8:47 )
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." ( John 10:27 ).
They "hear" ( or hearken to ) His words.
As I see it, if anyone flat-out rejects the inspired word of God by Paul, by Peter, by John or by any of His other apostles and prophets, they are rejecting His words.
So no, I do not believe that genuine, truly born-again and Spirit-indwelt Christians will reject Paul's teachings...
But I know of some who call themselves Christians that do.
Not the least of which is that they hear and believe every word of God...
They may not understand it right away, but they very definitely are willing to receive it.
The Lord specifically states one of the evidences of His working in someone:
" He that is of God heareth God's words..." ( John 8:47 )
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." ( John 10:27 ).
They "hear" ( or hearken to ) His words.
As I see it, if anyone flat-out rejects the inspired word of God by Paul, by Peter, by John or by any of His other apostles and prophets, they are rejecting His words.
So no, I do not believe that genuine, truly born-again and Spirit-indwelt Christians will reject Paul's teachings...
But I know of some who call themselves Christians that do.
Upon reflection, I'm going to have to change my answer.
You can be a Christian and not know or believe much of Paul's teachings. Christianity existed before Paul became a Christian.
But I do not think you can be a Christian and reject Paul's teaching (at least for the most part).
The difference is knowingly rejecting God's Word opposed to simple ignorance.
No! Not at all! The Bible does not contain the word of God, it is the word of God. All of it! 'If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write to you are the commandments of God' (1 Corinthians 14:37).
