Can you walk away from God?

StraightAndNarrow · Jan 9, 2007

Phillipians121 said:

Praise God for both your stories. He loves us so much he won't let us go too far. :applause:

I did some research and came upon this and liked it.

I Won't Blot Out His Name
Several things should be observed in relation to this expression. First, whatever it means, it can't contradict other Scripture or the clear meaning of the rest of the passage and of other Scripture.

Second, many read it as though it says, "He who doesn't overcome I will blot out his name..." It doesn't say that. It is important to note that this verse doesn't say anything about the fate of those who don't overcome. It certainly doesn't say that God will blot the non-overcomer's name out of the Book of Life. The focus here is on the overcomer, not on the non-overcomer.

If I said, "All fathers are men," that wouldn't mean that the opposite is true, that all men are fathers. There are men who aren't fathers. In the same way, the corollary to our verse is not true. God will not blot out the name of the non-overcoming believer from the Book of Life! Once a person has spiritual life, it can never be taken away (cf. John 10:28-29; 1 John 5:12)

Third, there is a well-established figure of speech called litotes or understatement In this figure of speech a positive point is made by denying its opposite. For example, imagine that a loving, committed mother said to her teenage son, "If you mow the yard today, I won't send you to bed without dinner." Let's assume that the mother had previously guaranteed him that she would never send him to bed without supper. He would thus know that even if he didn't mow the yard,he would get dinner. His mom was promising him a special meal if he mowed the yard.

So, too, when the Lord says that He won't blot the name of the overcoming believer from the Book of Life, He means that He will give the overcomer a special fullness of life forever.9

We know some of what this superlative experience will include: wearing special white garments (Rev 3:4-5), ruling with Christ (Rev 2:26-27; 3:21), eating the fruit of the tree of life (Rev 2:7), eating hidden manna (Rev 2:17), and receiving a white stone engraved with your own special name that only the Lord and you will know (Rev 2:17). None of these things is equivalent to eternal salvation. None of these things is required for kingdom entrance. These are all rewards awaiting the overcoming believer.

We don't know all that is in store for the overcoming believer. But from what we are told in the seven letters, we know that it will be something no one will want to miss.

William Fuller, who defends this understanding of Rev 3:5, writes, "A command that everyone keeps is superfluous, and a reward that everyone receives for a virtue that everyone has is nonsense." 10 The eternal-rewards interpretation takes the command seriously, views the reward as a powerful motivation to obedience, and doesn't distort the Gospel!

http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1995/95march1.html
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So in other words, do you believe the following?

He that does not overcome, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I have to interpret this verse as if there is a warning in it not meaningless doubletalk. What is the clear warning?

He that does not overcome, the same shall not be clothed in white raiment; and I will blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will not confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Do you really believe that this verse is meaningless?

Allan · Jan 9, 2007

StraightAndNarrow said:

The prodigal son walked away from God (his father). He came back but that was purely out of his own free will. He could have stayed away.
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Show me just one place in that PARABLE where the Father was no longer that wayward childs Father. Actaully it never says that RELATIONSHIP was cut off, just the fellowship. You can no more walk away from being a Fathers child (by blood) than you can walk away from being human. However you CAN walk away from that fellowship WITH your Father. Lets us see if there occurs ONCE where this relationship is no longer Father and son:

Luk 15:11 ¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons:
Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to [his] father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth [to me]. And he divided unto them [his] living.
Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put [it] on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on [his] feet:
Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill [it]; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry...
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NOTICE: Verse 19 and 21 is the son's OPINION of himself because of what he did and NOT the Fathers proclaimation. The Father states "MY SON was dead (not as in dead to Him via a relationship but but with regard to fellowship and is played out again in the later of this verse) and is alive (Back in fellowship)lost (not forsaken) but now is found (returned). We know this because the context dicates here that the relationship was maintained due to the discripters regarding their family ties. Context also shows it was their fellowship that died out but when he came back to his Father it was restored. Actaully I hold that it was restored BEFORE the son opened his mouth because his "Father" saw him afar off (on his way back) and had compassion on him and RAN to him, but it was still needful for the son to repent that the fellowship would be restored.

We don't hold on to the Father, it is the Father that holds onto us. Our relationship is dependent upon His Faithfulness - Not ours (Praise God)

Phillipians121 · Jan 9, 2007

Straighandnarrow the begining of the artical says this and then some....

I Will Not Blot Out His Name

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He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

-Revelation 3:5

Can a believer lose his salvation or be erased from the Book of Life if he does not overcome (Rev 3:5)? This seems to contradict John 5:24 and Eph 2:8-9 which view everlasting life as a free and secure gift. Or, does it mean that a believer who is truly saved will automatically produce good works and overcome? This seems to contradict Romans 6-7 which views the Christian walk as a struggle and a choice that every believer must make for himself.

Those are excellent questions. In them we see two possible interpretations and the difficulties with each. Neither of the two interpretations can be harmonized with the clear teaching of other Scripture.

The Loss-of-Salvation View

The problem with the loss-of-salvation view is that it clearly contradicts a host of passages. Jesus taught that believers "will never perish" (John 10:28), "shall not come into judgment" (John 5:24), and "have [already] passed from death into life" (John 5:24). The apostle Paul told the believers at Rome that "neither death nor life...nor things present nor things to come...shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord;" (Rom 8:38-39). To the believers at Ephesus he wrote, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph 2:8-9). And to the believers at Thessalonica he said that "whether we wake or sleep [i.e., whether we are morally alert or indolent], we should live together with Him" (1 Thess 5:10).

The Overcoming-Equals Faithful-Obedience View

According to this view all genuine believers overcome the world by living godly lives. One author writes: "John was so confident of the ultimate triumph of faith over sin that he had a special name for the believer: 'the one who overcomes' (1 John 5:5; Rev 2:7, 11, 26 ;3:5, 12, 21; 21:7).;&quot1 Notice that he equates overcoming with "the ultimate triumph of faith over sin.;" Based on the context of these remarks, it is clear the author is referring to some ultimate triumph of faith over sin in this life.2

According to what has come to be called the Reformed Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, all true believers persevere in a life of godliness. While there may be temporary setbacks and bouts with sin, believers are people who live victorious, holy lives to the end. People who hold the overcoming-equals-faithful-obedience interpretation of our verse understand it in light of that doctrine.

There is a major problem with this interpretation. The Bible does not promise that all true believers will live victorious, holy lives.3 Believers may have more than temporary setbacks and bouts with sin. It is sadly possible for believers to backslide terribly and to remain in that backslidden state until death. Certainly the church at Corinth was hardly a picture of believers experiencing ultimate victory over sin in their lives ( cf. 1 Cor 3:1-3; 11:30; see also Gal 6:1-5; Jas 5:19-20; and 1 John 5:16)!

I'm not saying that eternal security is not true. As already shown above, it is. What I am saying is that there is no guarantee in Scripture that eternally secure people will live overcoming, victorious lives here and now. Believers can fail.

The Overcoming-Equals-Faith View

There is a variation of the view just discussed which recognizes the possibility of failure in the Christian life. The overcoming-equals-faith view suggests that faith--not faithfulness-- is the victory. All believers are overcomers the moment they believe. The very act of believing overcomes the world: "Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:5).

While I am unaware of anyone who has put this view in writing, I know a number of people who hold it. I myself held this view for several years. It wasn't until I studied the seven letters of Revelation 2-3 during my doctoral work that I concluded that this wasn't what the Lord had in mind by the use of the word overcomer in Revelation.

It is true that 1 John 5:5 teaches that our faith overcomes the world. It is a mistake, however, to conclude that because John so used that expression in one place, he must have used it the same way in all other places. The contexts in which the expression is found in Revelation 2-3 are greatly different than the context of 1 John 5:5.

The second and third chapters of the Book of Revelation are seven letters to seven churches. Whereas 1 John 5:5 says that one overcomes by faith, the seven letters say that one overcomes by works (or by faith plus works). Consider, for example, these statements:

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works...To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God (2:5, 7b).
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life (2:10).
And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I give power over the nations (2:26).
Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown (3:11).
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne4 (3:21).

http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1995/95march1.html

Phillipians121 · Jan 9, 2007

Allen very good point and one I tried to make with the guy I was talking to.

Show me just one place in that PARABLE where the Father was no longer that wayward childs Father. Actaully it never says that RELATIONSHIP was cut off, just the fellowship. You can no more walk away from being a Fathers child (by blood) than you can walk away from being human. However you CAN walk away from that fellowship WITH your Father. Lets us see if there occurs ONCE where this relationship is no longer Father and son:
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standingfirminChrist · Jan 10, 2007

One can walk away from God.

We see this in 2 Thessalonians 2 when Paul wrote that there would be a great falling away... an apostasy.

If one does not repent of that apostacy, the Word clearly shows:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now, don't get me wrong, folks. I am not talking of one losing his or her salvation. One who truly is saved, God has promised to keep.

But many who fall away never were the sons of God. John wrote:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

If one dies in his apostasy, I believe that one was not of God; for he was not an overcomer. John also wrote:

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

If one dies in his or her apostasy, it just reveals what manner of tree that one was.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Are you as the trees that the Psalmist wrote? Cedars of Lebanon? The Palm? One that is flourishing? or are the branches withering?

Psalms 1:3-4 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

ccrobinson · Jan 10, 2007

One of my favorite things to do is to take a doctrine, a question, etc. and apply various other parts of appropriate Scripture so that it harmonizes. Which leads me to ask this. How does the idea of a Christian walking away from God harmonize with Galatians 2, specifically, verse 20?

Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
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According to this, if Christ lives in me, then he's with me wherever I go. As David wrote, "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?" I know that we can "live like the devil", so to speak, but as Greg Perry's excellent testimony pointed out, it's not like he ever really leaves us. Thus, I say that a Christian cannot walk away from God.

As I think everybody in this thread knows, :godisgood: and soooo patient with us.

Jon-Marc · Jan 11, 2007

I don't know if it can be called "leaving God' or not, but I have been out of His will at times. However, He has never left me as He promised, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Heb. 13:5. Some of us get discouraged and give up for a while, but the voice of the Holy Spirit is always there calling to us.

Allan · Jan 12, 2007

Amen Joh-Marc.

And by the way, Welcome to the BB (Baptist Board) :wavey: Glad to see AND hear from you. Watch your step cause it can get bumpy but more or less it is a pleasent if not interesting ride :smilewinkgrin:

webdog · Jan 12, 2007

A true believer will not walk away because he/she is born of God and "cannot" practice sin (1Jn 3:9-10)
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Huh?!?

webdog · Jan 12, 2007

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

This verse is used quite often by many as "proof text" that a true Christian cannot sin or walk away from God (carnal Christian). What we have...

a. old creation - sinner on the way to Hell
b. new creation - forgiven sinner on the way to Heaven.

The common denominator for both is sinner. That doesn't change. As long as we have a sin nature, we can break fellowship with God (walk away) and sin....and for no set period or amount of time. Be prepared to be chastened by God, though, something that's not pretty. Perseverance of the saints is a myth in the same sense that true Christians cannot sin, commit certain sins, and lose our salvation.

Jon-Marc · Jan 12, 2007

If you you truly saved and in the family of God, you can "backslide" and go back out into the world of sin. However, since God has promised, "I will never leave you nor forsake you", we take Him with us wherever we go. It's as if He therefore is partaking in our sin since He is within us. I'm not saying that God sins because we do, but the thought that He is in me makes me think twice about participating in sin.

Romans 8:9: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

The redeemed have the Spirit dwelling IN them. Anyone who doesn't is not of God. Wherever we go and whatever we do, it is as if He partakes of it also. That is one thing that keeps me doing many things I might otherwise do.

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