Carnal Christians, false converts, or weak brethren?

[DHK]

If eternal life is a reward, it would not be a salvation by grace.

It is not a reward but a gift.
The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[DHK]

Actually per the Bible :
Unsaved/lost

Saved, who can switch back and forth from living for God out of the power of the HS filling them, or else living in own streght, and failing, trying to keep the law rto please God, but fail when done own might!

Carnal christians are just those who ahve chosen at some point in time to live as their own lords, who fail to be effective for God, but can at any time chose to have the Lord take over and empower, and thus 'spiritual" again!

What makes you think that a Christian living a carnal life can change the status of Christ being Lord. I would think that a carnal Christian, in your view, would have great power with God, if he can dethrone Christ from being Lord. This is the greatest fallacy of Lordship salvation. There is nothing that anyone can do that will affect Christ from being Lord--our Lord. He is our Lord no matter what, and no matter what we do. If you have trusted him as Savior and Lord; if born again, he is Lord, and you can't change that. In fact even if you are unsaved Christ is Lord, just not your Lord.

If you go to England where a monarchy is in place. You become a citizen of that nation. The present queen is your lord. Take it to another century when they had a king for a better illustration. The king would be your lord. You could choose to obey him and be a good citizen and keep all the laws. But you could embark on a course of disobedience, a rebel. The king would still be your lord. You may end up in jail for crimes committed, if those crimes were serious. But the king would still be your lord. You cannot dethrone him by your pity little actions. What do you think you would have to do to dethrone the king?

Lucifer tried it, failed, and what became of him?
There is nothing you can do, carnal or otherwise, that will dethrone Christ. Once a Christian, Christ is YOUR Lord. This concept of Lordship salvation is totally unbiblical. There are carnal Christians because they choose to live in disobedience to the Lord.

 

[Forest]

Paul addressed the ones in 1Cor.3 as brethren. They were sheep.
We all start out as sheep. Some sheep grow faster than others. Not everyone is the same. Remember that in the first epistle of the Corinthians, Paul was addressing various problems. When he was addressing problems relating to marriage he wasn't addressing single young men. When he told fathers not to provoke their children he wasn't addressing mothers. He addressed situations, and the people involved in those situations. In fact in 1Cor.5:1ff, the situation revolves around one man, and the churches reaction to that one man's sin. Every chapter is different with different people involved. Thus not the whole church were "carnal Christians" or babes in Christ.

Where in my post did I say that the whole church were babes in Christ?

 

[Forest]

Calvinism denies passage after passage and writes others to fit its mistaken doctrine. No mention is made of whether tares can be converted to wheat in the passage, just that God will separate wheat and tares at the harvest time. The tares are simply men of flesh who have not yet been regenerated because they do not understand fully the gospel because what they heard was not the pure gospel, or they have not committed wholeheartedly to Jesus alone.

However, Paul teaches that each and every born again believer was once a child of wrath just as the tares. So scripture does teach that the unsaved can become saved, provided they are cultivated, planted with good seed, and watered.

Ps 10:4, 1 Cor 2:14, Job 21:14, Ps 73:11-12.

 

[Forest]

It is not a reward but a gift.
The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

DHK, I was asserting that eternal salvation is by the grace of God and is NOT A REWARD. A reward is something earned.

 

[DHK]

DHK, I was asserting that eternal salvation is by the grace of God and is NOT A REWARD. A reward is something earned.

I wasn't really disagreeing with you.

 

[convicted1]

It is not a reward but a gift.
The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[DaChaser1]

What makes you think that a Christian living a carnal life can change the status of Christ being Lord. I would think that a carnal Christian, in your view, would have great power with God, if he can dethrone Christ from being Lord. This is the greatest fallacy of Lordship salvation. There is nothing that anyone can do that will affect Christ from being Lord--our Lord. He is our Lord no matter what, and no matter what we do. If you have trusted him as Savior and Lord; if born again, he is Lord, and you can't change that. In fact even if you are unsaved Christ is Lord, just not your Lord.

I do agree with you DHK on this isuue though!
jesus is the Lord over all christians regardless if they agree to submit fully to Him in his position, its just that Sprit filled saints WILL acknowledhe his lordship over their lives by yielding to the holy Spirit and have His empowering tolive for Chrsit, while carnal saints depend to their own strenght, desiring to 'sorta" having the HS enabling them to live for God! Carnals saints try to obey God either from their flesh, or when it suits them!

If you go to England where a monarchy is in place. You become a citizen of that nation. The present queen is your lord. Take it to another century when they had a king for a better illustration. The king would be your lord. You could choose to obey him and be a good citizen and keep all the laws. But you could embark on a course of disobedience, a rebel. The king would still be your lord. You may end up in jail for crimes committed, if those crimes were serious. But the king would still be your lord. You cannot dethrone him by your pity little actions. What do you think you would have to do to dethrone the king?

see above reply, I axctually agree with you here!

Lucifer tried it, failed, and what became of him?
There is nothing you can do, carnal or otherwise, that will dethrone Christ. Once a Christian, Christ is YOUR Lord. This concept of Lordship salvation is totally unbiblical. There are carnal Christians because they choose to live in disobedience to the Lord.

Think there can be a mediating position to this...

Genuine believers really saved will evidence more of a desire to live for Christ first, to be pleasing Him, but can also chose to disobey and sin against their Lord, or try to live out from fleshy weak natures for him!

we do see more on this topic then you wrote back to me, its just I hold that once saved we have to be empowered by and walking in the HS in order to have faithful life before the Lord!

 

[DHK]

we do see more on this topic then you wrote back to me, its just I hold that once saved we have to be empowered by and walking in the HS in order to have faithful life before the Lord!

That certainly is our goal. But alas, we do still have a depraved nature, and sometimes that old nature wins. That is when we become carnal in our lives and give into the world rather than to Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That certainly is our goal. But alas, we do still have a depraved nature, and sometimes that old nature wins. That is when we become carnal in our lives and give into the world rather than to Christ.

I have not read this whole thread but I'd like a definition of carnal. Ive always thought it was someone who hasn't been saved but still touts Christianity, principally because its convenient, socially acceptable etc......but they are neither regenerated nor do you see any fruit of the Holy Spirit. I was that for 53 years prior to conversion.

 

[revmwc]

I have not read this whole thread but I'd like a definition of carnal. Ive always thought it was someone who hasn't been saved but still touts Christianity, principally because its convenient, socially acceptable etc......but they are neither regenerated nor do you see any fruit of the Holy Spirit. I was that for 53 years prior to conversion.

First the unbeliever is called the natural man by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14.
That means the unbeliever is a "Psuchikos" which means of or belonging to breath having the nature and characteristics of the breath the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes governed by breath
the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

So that is one Catagory of human on this earth.

Next Romans 8:7 Paul says to be carnally minded is emnity with God. Carnally means a person is living in the "Sarx" meaning :
flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts the body the body of a man
used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship born of natural generation the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" without any suggestion of depravity the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
But notice this is not in reference to the natural man but in Romans 8:8 Paul uses the same word for Flesh, of those living in the Flesh. In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul says they are carnal which is "Sarkikos" this is derived from the word "Sarx" and means fleshly, carnal having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature human: with the included idea of depravity pertaining to the flesh
to the body: related to birth, linage, etc
and is in reference to the belivers at Corinth living in the flesh in other words living in sin as believers.

They are Sarkikos people a second catagory of human living on earth today.

Then we see also in 1 Corinthians 3:1 verse 1 Paul uses yet another term for man, the "Pneumatikos" which means: relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ that which possesses the nature of the rational soul belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God belonging to the Divine Spirit of God the Holy Spirit one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

When Paul says he could not speak to them as Spiritual or "Pneumatikos" yet a third catagory of person living today.
Paul uses the same word in 1 Corinthians 2:14 for the things of the of the spirit of God are " Pneumatikos" discerned.

So three catagories of people live today:
Psuchikos- Natural man unbeliever
Sarkikos- Carnal believer
Pneumatikos- Spirutal believer.

All seen in the writings of Paul. We all fall into one catagory or the other. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 3 that some will be saved and receive a reward of wood, hay and stubble but be saved for eternity yet though as through the fire. That would be the Sarkikos believer, saved but with no eternal rewards because they lived in the flesh as believers.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

First the unbeliever is called the natural man by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14.
That means the unbeliever is a "Psuchikos" which means of or belonging to breath having the nature and characteristics of the breath the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes governed by breath
the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

So that is one Catagory of human on this earth.

Next Romans 8:7 Paul says to be carnally minded is emnity with God. Carnally means a person is living in the "Sarx" meaning :
flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts the body the body of a man
used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship born of natural generation the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" without any suggestion of depravity the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
But notice this is not in reference to the natural man but in Romans 8:8 Paul uses the same word for Flesh, of those living in the Flesh. In 1 Corinthians 3 Paul says they are carnal which is "Sarkikos" this is derived from the word "Sarx" and means fleshly, carnal having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature human: with the included idea of depravity pertaining to the flesh
to the body: related to birth, linage, etc
and is in reference to the belivers at Corinth living in the flesh in other words living in sin as believers.

They are Sarkikos people a second catagory of human living on earth today.

Then we see also in 1 Corinthians 3:1 verse 1 Paul uses yet another term for man, the "Pneumatikos" which means: relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ that which possesses the nature of the rational soul belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God belonging to the Divine Spirit of God the Holy Spirit one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

When Paul says he could not speak to them as Spiritual or "Pneumatikos" yet a third catagory of person living today.
Paul uses the same word in 1 Corinthians 2:14 for the things of the of the spirit of God are " Pneumatikos" discerned.

So three catagories of people live today:
Psuchikos- Natural man unbeliever
Sarkikos- Carnal believer
Pneumatikos- Spirutal believer.

All seen in the writings of Paul. We all fall into one catagory or the other. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 3 that some will be saved and receive a reward of wood, hay and stubble but be saved for eternity yet though as through the fire. That would be the Sarkikos believer, saved but with no eternal rewards because they lived in the flesh as believers.

Then I guess I never had a carnal nature....I was 1 & then 3. nothing in between.

 

[DHK]

I have not read this whole thread but I'd like a definition of carnal. Ive always thought it was someone who hasn't been saved but still touts Christianity, principally because its convenient, socially acceptable etc......but they are neither regenerated nor do you see any fruit of the Holy Spirit. I was that for 53 years prior to conversion.

On the first page, post #3, I posted this:

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1. They are brethren. They are believers.
2. They are babes in Christ. They are either new believers or act as new believers.
3. He cannot speak unto them as spiritual, that is, as mature believers.
4. He must start over speaking to them as carnal believers, believers who have been so influenced by the world that they must start with the basics all over again. They are believers, but carnal believers. Yes there is such a thing as a carnal Christian in-spite of what those like McArthur say.

I believe this is the Biblical view. There are other Scriptures to support how a Christian can be carnal or worldly, as I would say.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

On the first page, post #3, I posted this:
I believe this is the Biblical view. There are other Scriptures to support how a Christian can be carnal or worldly, as I would say.

Yes but are they born anew?

 

[DHK]

Yes but are they born anew?

Paul calls them "brethren." Only those that are born anew or saved are brethren.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
--Here he is referring back to their salvation. He says that by now he should be feeding them meat, that is, speaking to them as spiritually mature Christians, but they haven't matured. They are still babes in Christ. Paul would never refer to any unsaved person as a "babe in Christ."

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
--Again he refers back to their salvation, when he fed them with milk. He speaks of where they should be now--mature Christians eating meat, but they aren't. Paul would never speak to the unsaved that way, but he would speak to Christians who are not growing for one reason or another.

 

[revmwc]

Then I guess I never had a carnal nature....I was 1 & then 3. nothing in between.

If you never fall into sin and have it rule you then that is great. But one sin actually makes you live in the flesh if you go very long without confession.

 

[DaChaser1]

I have not read this whole thread but I'd like a definition of carnal. Ive always thought it was someone who hasn't been saved but still touts Christianity, principally because its convenient, socially acceptable etc......but they are neither regenerated nor do you see any fruit of the Holy Spirit. I was that for 53 years prior to conversion.

A genuine believer that has been saved by grace of god, but who stays a "bae' in christ, and acts immaturily/selfish at times, refusing to yield control of himself to jesus, so still walking to some degree in Flesh, not by the power of the HS in him now!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If you never fall into sin and have it rule you then that is great. But one sin actually makes you live in the flesh if you go very long without confession.

I sin all the time.....can you look at a beautiful woman without having thoughts....even for a split second. Do you not get angry....never ever? look how many in here who profess Christianity but are vindictive & contentious....are they acting in Christian brotherhood & love? How bout hypocrisy & greed & pride, envy, lust, arrogance covetousness, combative, hateful, vengeful, spiteful, vile, glutinousness, miserable etc.... I dont know of anyone save Christ who has overcome.....therefore I suggest we are all carnal & we all wallow (consciously or unconsciously) in sin.

 

[DHK]

I sin all the time.....can you look at a beautiful woman without having thoughts....even for a split second. Do you not get angry....never ever? look how many in here who profess Christianity but are vindictive & contentious....are they acting in Christian brotherhood & love? How bout hypocrisy & greed & pride, envy, lust, arrogance covetousness, combative, hateful, vengeful, spiteful, vile, glutinousness, miserable etc.... I dont know of anyone save Christ who has overcome.....therefore I suggest we are all carnal & we all wallow (consciously or unconsciously) in sin.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
--Make it a daily practice.

1 Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice evermore.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
--Be in an continual attitude of prayer.

Psalms 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
--Be continually filled with the Holy Spirit.

These are but some of the ways to keep from being carnal.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And what do you call that....."Sanctification"?