Carnal Christians

I am dealing with the text J.Jump, nothing else.

peace to youraise:

 

No you are not. You are dealing with what you want the text to say. That's not what the text says.

 

I Cor 3:1 "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh (carnal), as to babes in Christ"

Paul has been forced to speak to them "as"carnal; "as"to babes in Christ. The word "as" indicates a comparison, not a statement of fact.

I am dealing with the text J.Jump; nothing else.

peace to youraise:

 

canadyjd go back to the very first chapter of the book and see who the letter is written to. It's written to the church at Corinth. The it goes on to say I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus.

Going to be awfully hard to say that there were saved in chapter one and then say they weren't saved in chapter three.

Paul was forced to speak to them as men of the flesh, because they were walking in the flesh, instead of in the Spirit, not because they were unsaved, but because it is possible that a saved person can be walking in the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit.

These were saved individuals that were not progressing in their spiritual growth process like they should have been. They should have been abled to be addressed as mature believers, but they were still babes in Christ!

That's what the text says.

 

Paul doesn't declare them saved or unsaved, and neither should we. He addresses them as Christians because they belong to church; therefore, they must have made a profession of faith in Christ. I know you have stated that a profession is all that is necessary. No need to rehash that debate, we will disagree.

The question, as I see it, is whether Paul considered it a possibility that they were never saved in the first place, and are really lost. I maintain that Paul does consider it a possibility, which is why he says he is forced to speak to them "as if" they are carnal (men of flesh/without Holy Spirit).

He is careful not to declare them to be unsaved, but he is clearly implying that their behavior has made him doubt whether Holy Spirit truly indwells them. His other option is that they are "babes in Christ" (lacking maturity to resist "fleshly" impulses). Both options are stated in order to shame them.

peace to youraise:

 

peace to youraise: :sleeping_2:

 

That's not what I state, that's what the Bible states.

The word is "as" not "as if"

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual [SIZE=-1]R99[/SIZE] men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

I couldn't speak to as spiritual men, which you are, but I had to speak to you as men of flesh, because you are walking in the flesh, you are infants in Christ.

You have to read a AWFUL lot into the text to get it to say what you want it to say. Paul addresses them as Christians, not because he thinks they may be, but they may not be, but because they are. He tells us in the first chapter they are.

Another thing Paul refers to them as brethren, brothers in Christ. Paul doesn't refer to unsaved as brethren.

Then in verse 2 he tells us what was delievered to them. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it.

He gave them milk. Unsaved people can't even consume the milk until they are saved.

Then he goes on to say that he still can't move on with them (even though he should be able to by now) because they are fleshly. Saved individuals can live in the flesh. He expected them to have matured, but they didn't. Why would Paul expect an unsaved person to mature when that is an impossibility?

Your view just doesn't fit the text.

 

And what happens if he stops? Was he not saved enough?

 

I read one word into the text; "if"; you read three "which you are". :tongue3: My interpretation is consistent with the word "as" being used to compare; not as a statement of fact. You are making it a statement of fact, which is not consistent with what Paul is saying.

BTW; Your belief that salvation comes from simple "mental assent" to a certain set of facts about Jesus is a refuted heresy called "Sandemanism". I even know a little song to help me remember;

Sung to "Mr. Sandman"

"Mr. San-de-man-n-n-n, give me a dream; tell me I'm saved when I only agree...."

peace to youraise:

 

You ask me for more cherries, after you've spouted off a post that contains ZERO Scripture evidence for what you say. So everyone is supposed to believe like Gekko just because Gekko has spoken?

Where is your Scripture support. You've got none, becuase if a person professes to believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ on their behalf a sinner they are saved. That's just plainly what the Bible says. To believe otherwise is to believe contrary to Scripture.

I'll take Scripture over everyone else.

Well it's Scripture, so if you want to say the Scriptures are superstitious well there you go.

I never said words saved a person. I said faith/believe saves people. I say that becuase that's what the Bible says! Why do people have such a hard time trusting in the Bible?

Well let's see it. You talk a lot, but I've seen no Scripture.

That's because context tells us what a verse or passage means. We are not to assign meaning to passages. The Bible interprets Itself, so we don't have to do that.

So if it's not contextually speaking of eternal salvation. Guess what...that means it isn't speaking of eternal salvation.

Yes it does if you are talking about salvation of the soul.

Do you have ANY Scripture evidence Gekko?

 

I disagree with you, because that word "hos" can mean as, like or even as. But even at that your view does not fit, becuase Paul is addressing saved individuals and he tells us that in the opening chapter. Your view ignores one piece of Scripture so that another piece of Scripture can say what you want it to say.

This just goes to show you have no idea what you are talking about. No one, including myself, has said that if someone just believes some facts they are saved.

Someone can believe in a man named Jesus. They can believe He was God. And they can believe that He died on a cross and rose again. But that doesn't save them. That is what you heresy is talking about and I completely agree with that.

The difference is a saved person will believe that they are a sinner and that Christ died in their place and paid the penalty for their sin with His shed blood.

There is a HUGE difference between faith and just believing some facts.

Bottom line is Scripture just tells us to believe and have faith, and that can not be refuted although there are many, many, many that want to try for some reason. I still can't understand why someone would want to take such a simple message and muddy it up with all these rules and regulations and steps.

Believe and be saved. That's what the Word says!

 

I least we agree "mental assent" isn't salvation.

I wish you could see that you cannot proclaim people to be saved based on words that come out of their mouth. Only God can know if they believe in their heart. Only God knows if they are repentent. Only God knows if they have the Spirit. Only God knows.

We are told in God's Word that if a person continually acts like an unsaved person, we are to consider them to be lost and treat them as if they are lost, despite what they may have said in the past. That is what Jesus said in Matt. 18. That is a major theme in James. That is a major them in John's letters.

No where does scripture say the opposite. No where does it say "if your brother continues in sin, even if he is denying Jesus as Lord, just keep reassuring him he is saved because he proclaimed Jesus to be Lord at some time in the past". That is what you are saying and that is false assurance and that is dangerous.

That is not what Paul is saying in I Cor. and elsewhere. He often urges those he has just called "believers" and "brethren" to examine themselves to see if they are really believers; if they really have the Spirit; if they are really saved: That assurance is based on how they are living their lives and not on what they have said in the past.
peace to youraise:

 

I'm christianyouth's brother I beleive at the point in which someone is truely saved there is a change. Of course we can rebel and feed our sin nature but we can't do so and be happy in doing so.

Rom 8:5-8

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
KJV



even if i wanted to, which i never would , even though doing what you want seems more natural, when one sees where it ends, I have no desire and also recognize that God would not allow me to indulge in the sins I used to and not be totally miserable compared to before when I could do them and not even think about if it was right or wrong.

 

1 Corinthians was written to a bunch of people who were committing gross fornication and living a fleshly (carnal) life. So, he has to speak to them as carnal people.

MatthewC, praise God for your experiences!

However, the point that I was making is not that you will go out and do those things, nor even if you could be happy doing them. My point is that even if you do, you're still saved, because you're not saved by your works (nor do you prove your salvation by your works), you're saved by accepting the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

Even if you fall by the wayside, you're still saved.

That doesn't mean that you won't have to answer for your lifestyle, but that answer cannot include loss if spiritual salvation, according to Scriptures.

 

AMEN!! And on that we agree as well. That's why I don't understand why so many people today are trying to figure out who is and who isn't saved based on works. Works don't tell us who is saved. God tells us who is saved.

Now works are an indicator of whether or not we should be listening to the teaching of someone, but not to salvation.

I agree and disagree with this statement. If someone has said that they have believed in Christ as Savior, then they are to be treated as a brother or sister in Christ. If they need teaching then we teach. If they need rebuking then we rebuke. If they need encouragement then we encourage. If they need to be disfellowshipped then we disfellowship, but all of these things are done in love and with a few to restoration.

If they don't want to be restored, then we just don't fellowship with them, so I guess if you call that treating them as they are unsaved I would agree, but if they tell us they have accepted Christ then we treat them as a brother or sister.

Now we may have to do some preliminary digging to make sure that they know what believing in Christ really means, but once we are as secure as we can be that they are saved we are to treat them as saved.

Not at all. I've never said that. You are putting words into my mouth. If they say they are saved then as far as I'm concerned they are saved. If a person is living in sin you don't keep assuring them you are saved, you say look if you continue to live in sin there are consequences you are going to have to pay.

But you can only do that for so long, and then you just let them go and let God deal with them another way. If a person is saved you don't try to convince them that they are not because of works, because works are not an indicator of salvation.

No it's not. I can't believe you keep pushing this false idea. Paul does not tell someone to examine themselves to see if they are really saved, because there is nothing to examine. Either they believe or they don't.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves in relation to works. Our works NEVER enter the picture of eternal salvation. NEVER. You either believe or you don't. There's nothing to examine. If you have believed at some point, then at that very moment you are saved and the subject is a done deal and will never be addressed again.

We don't go through life constantly examing ourselves to see if we are saved, or we would never get to maturing. Salvation is the first step and if we have to keep making sure we are okay with step one then we can never go on to step two, three, four or any other.

 

Matthew welcome to the BB and welcome to the family of God! Praise God for your faith!!

However what you have quoted here is misapplying what Scripture says.

This text is addressed to believers. Paul is telling them that if they are walking after the flesh then they are at enmity with God. Paul is not describing a saved and unsaved person, he is dealing with what is possible in the life of those believers.

Please don't fall into the Satanic lie that says you are incapable of sinning or walking in sin. When we deny Truth that is the very time we become more vulnerable. Pride comes before the fall. It may not happen today, tomorrow or this year, but you are giving the enemy a crack in the door.

God does not force His will upon you as this statement says. We must cooperate with God and if we don't He will in fact let us do something like this. He let Annanias and Saphira lie and it cost them their lives.

 

You keep talking about scripture but there's NO scripture in your last 4 posts. In fact there is very little scripture in any of your posts. What you're claiming is totally unsubstantiated by the Bible. Start over and give us some scriptural basis for your philosophy.

 

Now that's a funny statement.

If you want to deal with Scripture let's deal with Scripture. You very rarely bring any up.

How are you going to deal with I Corinthians 3? Paul says those Christians were carnal. How are you going to deny a carnal Christian?

The Bible says we are supposed to walk in the Spirit. The Bible says we are to mortify the deeds of the body. The Bible says we are not to be a slave to sin.

But it doesn't say we won't be a slave to sin and we will walk by the Spirit. It says we should do these things. Should and will are two totally different things.

I've asked you several times about Ephesians 2:10, but you don't want to deal in Scripture, because you know it doesn't support your view. You just want to make silly comments like the one above.

So if Christians are going to be faithful and produce good works and that's a guarantee for every Christian, then why does Ephesians 2:10 say we SHOULD do the works? Why doesn't it say we WILL do the works? Do you think the Holy Spirit made a mistake?

 

2 Cor: 13:5 "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?"

Paul is clearly telling them that if they fail the "test" of having Jesus Christ in them, they are not saved. Again, he has referred to them as believers; but is clearly linking being "in the faith" with having "Jesus in you". He doesn't proclaim them saved or unsaved. He tells them to examine their faith to see if it is genuine.

I Cor 15:1 "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, (v.2) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

Please notice the "if" right after the word "saved". Paul has just called them "brethren", and then clearly links salvation with perserverence in the gospel. He also indicates that if they do not "hold fast" to the word, it is possible they had "believed in vain." That can only mean their faith (belief) was never genuine, and therefore "vain". He does not declare them saved or unsaved. He does give the a sign by which they can have assurance of their salvation, however.

What is the sign given by Paul that is the basis for assurance of their salvation? It certainly isn't the long ago "profession of faith". It is the their holding fast to the word. It is their standing firm in the gospel of Christ. It is how they are living their lives.

There are many more, if you will accept them.
peace to youraise: