Carnal Christians

Who are the righteous? Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous because they walked in the commandments of the Lord. It is because of their behavior.

As saved people, we can be righteous or we can be unrighteous (sinners).

Here's a sermon on the Salvation of the Soul. If you click this link, you can download the pdf, mp3, or read it online. I'm doing a more indepth one soon, but have not done so yet.

 

Gekko I really think the Light switch is being turned on for you! War is EXACTLY what this is. We are in a spiritual warfare with a spiritual foe that does not want us to succeed. Because if we sucdeed then we will be part of the ones that move into his realm and rule in his stead and his angels stead.

That is the spiritual warfare that we are in is Satan is trying to get us to disqualify ourselves in the race of the faith. And unfortunately he has succeeded all too well, to where now he really isn't having to do a whole lot, because the church is actually doing a lot of his work for him because they are getting people to disqualify themselves by not teaching the Truth of the matters.

But Matthew 13 tells us that this would be the case as the leaven works its way through the three measures of meal.

 

J.Jump

You have accused me of pushing a "false idea". I have demonstrated by scripture that it is not. I expect an apology, sir.

2 Cor: 13:5 "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?"

Paul is clearly telling them that if they fail the "test" of having Jesus Christ in them, they are not saved. Again, he has referred to them as believers; but is clearly linking being "in the faith" with having "Jesus in you". He doesn't proclaim them saved or unsaved. He tells them to examine their faith to see if it is genuine.

I Cor 15:1 "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, (v.2) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

Please notice the "if" right after the word "saved". Paul has just called them "brethren", and then clearly links salvation with perserverence in the gospel. He also indicates that if they do not "hold fast" to the word, it is possible they had "believed in vain." That can only mean their faith (belief) was never genuine, and therefore "vain". He does not declare them saved or unsaved. He does give the a sign by which they can have assurance of their salvation, however.

What is the sign given by Paul that is the basis for assurance of their salvation? It certainly isn't the long ago "profession of faith". It is the their holding fast to the word. It is their standing firm in the gospel of Christ. It is how they are living their lives.

There are many more, if you will accept them.
peace to youraise:

 

What you have done is what most do. They find a passage of Scripture that says what they want it to say and then they pluck it out of Scripture and go hey look here I found a Scripture.

You have found a Scripture and assigned your own context to the passage so that it will say what you want it to say. And for that sir I offer no apology.

Here is a literal rendering of the verse from the CLV:

Try yourselves, if you are in the faith; |test yourselves. Or are you not recognizing yourselves that Christ Jesus is in you, except you are anysomewhat disqualified?

"you are" is a present, indicitive indicating they are in the faith, there is no doubt. He is asking them if they don't recognize that Jesus Christ is in them, not that there is a possibility He's not unless they are disqaulified.

This isn't even remotely close to talking about eternal salvation, because they are in the faith. And the faith has to do with not eternal salvation, because that's not an ongoing faith, but a faith like that in James which talks about the salvation of the soul.

Again Scripture is just not saying what you want it to say.

That's speaking of the gospel of the kingdom not eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is a one-time event not a holding fast.

And I will say the same to you.

 

Then I am finished with you, sir.

peace to youraise:

 

Sorry you feel that way. :wavey:

 

We are spiritually saved the instant we believe. That's irrevocable. What must I do to be saved? Believe (punctiliar) on the Lord Jesus and you will (indicative; it will happen) be saved. You are saved from the penalty of sin.

But, just like an earthly baby, that's just the beginning of life. You are to go on, on your journey through the desert toward maturity. He is saving you from the power of sin, if you let him.

In the future, you will be saved wholly, if you persevere. He will one day save you from the presence of sin.

Everyone who is saved, is saved. Period. Not all will persevere on through the journey and will lose their lives (souls) in the wilderness. They won't make it to the Kingdom.

That's the picture we're given by children of Israel is that they were saved the instant they left Egypt; they were already in the promised land. (Genesis 15:18) Then, they were baptized, then they journeyed through the wilderness toward the better part of their inheritance, which was Canaan; the Land Flowing with Milk and Honey.

Faith is a noun, not a verb. We are saved by "believe", but we live by faith. Faith is how we are to go on our journey through the wilderness. We can either serve here and now or serve later. You can save your life (soul) now, or you can save it later.

Once saved always saved, but you are expected to live your life by faith. If you are not faithful, you will answer for it, but not through a loss of spiritual salvation.

 

Actually eternal salvation is seen in this story the moment that Israel believed what God said about the death and blood of the lambs regarding the passover night.

The Red Sea crossing is the picture of baptism.

Yes you could look at the entire process of salvation that way. Eternal salvation comes at the very moment we believe and we have been saved in the past. That part of salvation is a done deal.

Then our souls are being saved in the present if we are being faithful, obedient and overcoming (walking in the Spirit instead of the flesh, etc.), and then one day we will be given new bodies, so that our physicalness will be saved as well in the future.

 

Do you have any scriptural support for this or is this just your own belief?

 

Here's the problem you are left with taking that road. You have a salvation based on the works of the individual, which makes the works of Christ insufficient at best and there is not security. The Bible says both of these are incorrect views.

See that is the amazing thing about Scripture. There is only one correct way to view it. Not because someone says so, but because that's the way God put it together. Scripture interprets Scripture, and if we will get ourselves out of the way, which is difficult to do, then the Holy Spirit can and will guide us into ALL Truth that is contained within God's revelation to mankind.

 

That's my whole point. I don't want to view it that way, because the Bible doesn't lay it out that way. The Bible teaches that the ONLY works necessary for eternal salvation are the works that Christ has done on the behalf of the sinner.

When one believes in His substitutionary death and shed blood for them a sinner then they are saved the very moment they believe. At that point eternal salvation then becomes a thing of the past and a non-issue. The matter is over and done with as far as God is concerned and never brought up again.

Our spirits are made alive at that very moment. We are identified with Christ that very moment. And God looks at us through the blood of Christ from that very moment.

All of the rest of Scripture dealing with grace, faith, salvation, gospel, etc. is dealing with a new subject.

If those two subjects are tried to be made one then contradictions will arise that can not be solved. Oh people say they solve them, but they really don't. They just convince themselves of something that is not there.

It is terribly sad, but unfortunately "we" get in the way of correct interpretation way to often. But that's just the way things are as human beings. Messing things up is the only thing we are good at That's why correct Biblical interpretation is not left up to us.

 

How was it that you were starting to get this and then just all of a sudden you are back to where you started?

Just becuase salvation is a free gift and easy to receive doesn't mean the whole world is going to take advantage of it. That's not a very solid reason to reject a teaching at all. Some people don't think they are sinners. Some don't think they are very bad sinners. I mean there are a number of different reasons why people don't accept the free gift.

But just becuase they don't accept it doesn't mean it's not available. And just because people don't accept it doesn't mean that it's not free.

Grace is free bottom line. To add anything to the free gift destorys the free gift altogether.

Not eternal salvation. Eternal salvation is a free gift that is received by faith/believing (Acts 16:30-31, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4).

Us never enters the equation. NEVER. Because in order for Christ to work through us we have to be cooperative, which means salvation would rely on us. That can't be.

But theology is not based on what J. Jump and Gekko agree and disagree with. With have to go strictly on what Scripture says. And Scripture says believe and you will be (for sure, no doubt, not maybe) be saved (Acts 16:30-31).

But you have to let the context tell you what those others places are talking about. Just because salvation is in a verse doesn't mean it's talking about eternal salvation. Context is king. Context must tell us what the words mean, not us telling the words what they mean and what the context is.

 

It's the easiest thing to do, but the most difficult thing to realize that you need to do. That's the problem.

There are those who do not believe in God, they don't believe that they have done anything worth dying for, don't believe they can be forgiven for the terrible things they have done... The list is very long for why people don't accept the gift that has been offered to everyone.

I used to do a lot of skydiving, BTW, including instructing and assisting and folding parachutes for a commercial high adventure company. It's amazing how many people voluntarily paid their money to ride up in the plane, had on all the equipment, then could not make that step out the door.