Carnal Christians

That's right. You can't. But just becuase a saved individual serves mammon instead of God doesn't mean that he/she is unsaved.

You are serving another master everytime you sin. I am serving another master everytime I sin. God said if you are not for me you are against me. Well guess what...everytime you and I sin we are against God, because God and sin do not mix.

Everytime we sin we are allowing the flesh to rule us. We are serving the flesh and not God.

Jesus was absolutely correct in His statement, which should come as no great surprise to anyone, but you are reading way past where Jesus put the period. He didn't say serving another master makes you unsaved.

 

Gekko eternal salvation is a one-time event. That's what punctiliar means. So at the very moment the person believes he/she is saved. And that's where the period is. At that very moment eternal salvation becomes a non-issue, because the matter is never again brought up. It's over, done with, completed action.

What you are now espousing is a works-based salvation. You are saying that one has to believe and continue to believe in order to be saved. So you are not relying on the works of Christ's, but you are relying on you believing until you die. You are relying on you to save yourself.

 

Gekko I realize that's not what you want to say, but your views against security force you to say that.

If you are not secure in what Christ has done on your behalf then you are relying on yourself to get to the end and that is works based salvation.

That's the only two options. You are either secure in what Christ did for you on the cross or you have to rely on yourself to continue to believe. There are no other options.

Your scenario that you set up is irrelevant, because eternal salvation is a done deal the very moment someone believes. It is a subject that never comes up again as far as God is concerned. It's over and done with.

It doesn't matter if someone five years down the road said nah that was a bunch of nonsense and I don't believe it now. It doesn't matter. People don't like that becuase for some odd reason they want to keep as many people from salvation as they can, which I still can't figure that one out.

You are either saved or you are not. If you are saved your are saved. Period. End of discussion. Because that's what the Bible says.

 

But you have no Scripture to back up your position. You just state that a person can't do something. There is nothing in the Bible that says that. If you are going to disagree then you at least have to have Scripture to back up your claim or say I don't have Scripture to back up what I believe, but that's what I want to believe despite what Scripture says.

You can't just make blanket statements and then expect people to believe you just because you say so.

That's your statement of your belief, but when you speak about what you believe what you type is contradicting this statement.

Here is an example, because you say "i believe we are secure unless we reject Christ."

So salvation is not based upon what Christ did for you, but based on whether you continue to believe or not. That is works based salvation. You can say it's not, but convincing yourself of an untruth doesn't magically make it a true statement.

You are relying on you. Becuase as soon as "you" stop believing then you are done. I hope you can see this.

 

Hello there, J.Jump.

I do believe there are countless scriptures to back up gekko's view on carnal christians.

Matthew 7 is an obvious one, that was used earlier in the debate so I need not go into it..

I would suggest that you read 1 John as a whole, it is a small book and shouldnt take long to read it through, and there are some very profound verses dealing with professing Christians.. 'If we say we know him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth' , there is alot more..

You know, if I showed up late to school one day and my teacher asked me why I was late and I responded, " Sorry, my mom's car broke down on the freeway, and we went out to see what was wrong and we realized it had a flat tire. I went to change the tire and as I was changing it a 2 ton logging truck came flying down the freeway at 90mph, and it ran me over.. That is why I'm late."

Well, there would only be two possible explanations right? Either I am lieing, or I am insane.. It wouldnt be possible for me to walk away from that encounter with that logging truck and not be CHANGED... Well, let me ask you, whats bigger and more powerful, the logging truck or God?

When we have an encounter with God, it is a life changing thing.. I understand that there is ups and downs in the Christian life, and none of us are perfect, but no longer is the underlining characteristic of our life sin. We are new creatures.

You see, I DO empathize with Christians who are falling into sin, but not 'christians' who are diving into sin.. Who are glorying in their sin, feeling no remorse of conscience, and then we simply pat them on the back and say " its ok, they are just immature Christians, they are carnal.. They need to grow. " We say phrases like 'its a process, we are still under construction.' Yes, I know that is true, but when someone has spent the last twenty years of their life, at the same spiritual maturity level, something isnt going right in this 'process'.

I truly try not to let this belief effect my empathy towards other believers, because like Romans 14 says, we are to receive the weak in faith. However, I do encourage people to see if they are really saved, and yeah it may offend some, it actually does, but sometimes God's word is offensive.

What did Christian and Faithful do to their companion Talkative who was obviously not regenerate? Well, they confronted him about it, and went on their way.. Was Talkative really on pilgrims progress to the Celestial City? No, he had just hopped on the road a little bit to have some talking.

You will not find 'carnal christians' in any old religious text books, you wont find it in church history, and the majority of scriptures teaches that it is impossible to be spiritually regenerated, and live a life that is characterized by carnality and sin.

From what I hear, the teaching of carnal christians popped up in some seminiary 50 years ago, according to a sermon by Paul Washer ( www.heartcrymissionary.com ).

As always, God Bless and have a good day.
Andy

 

...then you're not secure.

 

No it can't and here's why. God commands that we believe. I am the only one that can believe. I'm not believing in me I'm believing in what was done on my behalf and then it is a done deal. My faith then turns to a different subject matter.

You are saying that you have to believe and then you have to continue to believe because if at any point you stop believing then you are lost. So you are not trusting in Christ, but you are trusting in you continuing to believe.

No I'm not relying on me believing. I'm doing what God commanded. He said believe (one-time event, never to be repeated). And He said believe in the finished works of Christ. So that's what I have done.

God doesn't ask me to continue to believe, but to believe once and then move on to the next aspect which is growth. Eternal salvation is never a subject in my life again as far as God is concerned, so why do we leave unsettled what God said isd a settled matter?

 

I wouldn't say it's obvious, becuase I'm not even sure what you are talking about. Are you talking about inspecting the fruits of the false prophets? That's how to deal with false prophets not the general public.

Again works are not a good indicator of salvation, becuase there are many people that don't believe that do far more "good" works that some saved people.

As a matter of fact I just got finished to a very indepth study on I John. You are unfortunately applying your own context, instead of letting the Word tell you what the context is and going from there.

I John was written to believers.

Yes we are new creations in Christ. We are babies. Name me one baby that didn't have to be taught right. There isn't one. You are a new creation, but you are not born with perfect desires. You must die to self and let the Holy Spirit teach you what it takes to mature in the faith.

That is not an automatic as you suggest. You are a baby and as a baby need to be taught. Unfortunately in Christendom today there are a LOAD of babies that aren't getting taught anything other than to check and make sure they are saved each week. We need to get away from thinking everything in the NT has to do with eternal salvation or we are never going to grow.

Yeah but the problem is the church is not telling them that there are condequences for not growing. The church today is saying it doesn't matter, because we all get to go to heaven and we all get to get our piece of the paradise pie. Your piece may be a little bigger than my piece, but that's okay. Blah, blah, blah - nonsense.

If you are not growing in Christ then everything is not going to come up rosey for you at the JSOC. But that's not what the church is telling people.

EXACTLY! That's exactly what I have been saying. That doesn't mean they are unsaved, that means there's something wrong with the process. More than likely its the fact that they don't care to be involved in the process. It has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

That's not a true statement at all. And if Scriptures teach us that, then please by all means share your evidence and let's take a look at it.

I'm sure you are aware of the statement you can't always believe what you hear, right? Paul talked about carnal Christians in the first century. So that pretty much eliminates the theory that you heard.

 

Gekko,

When you believe (aorist), it's an event. Much like squeezing the trigger on a gun. What happens when you squeeze the trigger on a gun? The bullet fires. You may regret squeezing the trigger, you may wish you had not done it, but you cannot unsqueeze it, neither will the bullet unfire if you do regret it.

It's the same thing. If you believe (aorist; event) then God tells us that something will happen, not that it may or may not happen. If you regret that decision and you reject Jesus later, guess what? You still believed, and God is faithful to his promises, not matter if we are or not. He has promised that if you believe in the Lord Jesus (and event), then you will be saved (it will happen).

If you think that you can forfeit your salvation, then either this is wrong, or there's a contradiction. Every text (and as far as I know, every manuscript) has this verse with "believe" as an aorist and "will be saved" as an indicative. So, it's a pretty good bet that this verse is correct.

So, how do you explain the contradiction?

 

What do you mean "open up the thread?" I didn't start this thread.

You must not have read what I said. I specifically stated that all Christians struggle with sin and that they sin.

 

No, you aren't serving another master every time you sin.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We will sin BUT should not serve sin.

Are you claiming that we can serve SATAN and still be saved? Unsupportable by scripture.

 

OK, so based on what you are saying, if someone makes a profession of faith, and produces fruit, but then dives headlong into sin, were they never saved, or did they lose their salvation?

 

I don't say plunges into sin will cause you to lose your salvation. The Prodigal Son plunged headlong into sin, right? But he came back. I say rejecting Christ as the master of your life and not repenting of that is the cause. So does the Parable of the Sower.


Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. NOT SAVED

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

This person received the word with joy. Sounds like a good description of salvation in the usual Baptist sense. How can you argue that someone who joyfully accepts Christ as his Savior isn’t saved? We’re talking about saved through Grace here. However, when times get hard he rejects his belief. LOSES SALVATION

Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. NOT SAVED

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. SAVED

Has the same experience as the person in the second example but bears fruit. He endures to the end.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

To answer your question, someone who does not endure until the end could either have never been saved at all or could have fallen from grace. God only knows.

 

Do you think there are contradictions in the Scriptures?

 

Why do you ask?

 

Because many people do, and it limits the debate on Scripture.

IOW, if someone thinks that Scripture contains errors, some discussions and debate are pointless. If someone thinks that Scripture contains no contradictions, then it's a more edifying debate, generally.

And by "contradiction" and "error" I'm not talking about differences in translation, unless you're a KJVO.

You are, of course, permitted to believe in a Bible with errors and contradictions or be a KJVO, but it would limit my ability and willingness to discuss and debate.

 

(yall slap me if this has already been said, I didnt read it all , but...) we always assume the prodigal son was saved then fell. Maybe he was not saved until he came back to his father. I think it fits, - lost, coin, lost sheep, lost son.