Carnal or Lost

[Iconoclast]

you are just dead wrong on this there is no other way to say it

 

[DHK]

you are just dead wrong on this there is no other way to say it

But you can't tell him why, or explain the reasons why you think he is wrong??

 

[Winman]

Not quite. The root of the "misunderstanding" is the Reformed mindset that obeying God is a vital requirement for one to enter heaven. It amounts to a works "gospel", whereby people are always trying to know if they're good enough.

But wait...I thought scripture speaks of a gift from God.

Correct. Enter TULIP, where they try to pretend that they're giving God all the credit for their good works.

But when they start inspecting each others fruit, they aren't looking at God. They're looking to the man.

Each Calvinist can conceive of himself being a carnal Christian because he knows himself. He just won't admit it to others, because they will condemn him as lost.

He really doesn't want to admit it to himself, because then his shallow assurance will begin to weaken further.

Sweep all faults under the rug, point the finger at others.

I was there, having been a Calvinist at one time. And I had no assurance, so I never wanted to focus on myself. Only doctrinal philisophy

Oh, I agree, and many times I have said a Calvinist can have no assurance. They can only hope to know they are saved by working. It actually explains why so many Calvinists seem to be horribly miserable and unhappy.

They will take offense, but it is true, they are a miserable bunch.

And they will take me wrong that I am saying this to offend them, when I am saying this to help them. They need to trust Jesus alone and the word of God. They need to reject these false doctrines like Limited Atonement and Total Inability.

They can pretend all they want, but this doctrine is transparent and cannot lead to assurance and happiness.

 

[Winman]

Most people have fallen into water or went for a swim, but that does not make them a fish......Christians can act in a fleshly, or carnal way....that does not change then from spiritual to carnal.

Here Icon is demonstrating what I wrote earlier, he understands "carnal" as our nature or constitution. To him a carnal man is unregenerate and enslaved by sin. In his view, no Christian can be carnal.

But Paul does indeed call Christians carnal in 1 Corinthians 3, so Icon's concept must be error. Being "carnal" is simply describing one's behavior at the moment, not their nature.

This is why Total Inability is error. Man is not enslaved by some evil nature that cannot do good. Romans 6:16-18 utterly refutes this concept as I have shown several times. Here Paul quite clearly teaches that these Romans "were servants to sin" but they were quite able to obey or believe the gospel from their heart in this position.

It was only after these persons who were servants to sin obeyed the gospel that they were made "free from sin" and "became the servants of righteousness".

Total Inability is false. Being "carnal" is simply a description of how a person is acting at the time, of whom they are "yielding" themselves servants to obey as Paul says in Rom 6:16. But they have the ability and option to yield themselves to righteousness.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Again, the Calvinist believes a man's choices are determined by his nature, but the scriptures teach the exact opposite, that a man's nature is determined by his choices.

This is where the Calvinist (and many others) go off the tracks into error.

 

[Iconoclast]

But you can't tell him why, or explain the reasons why you think he is wrong??

I was driving when I saw it...I knew you would be all over it,lol...I might offer on it now. I am on the phone but will get involved soon:wavey::wavey:
get him DHK

 

[Iconoclast]

JamesL

Hello James

The root of the "misunderstanding" is the Reformed mindset that obeying God is a vital requirement for one to enter heaven.

So are you saying that obeying God is not vital, maybe it is just optional...or we should not obey God at all...you know...let go and let God.

It amounts to a works "gospel", whereby people are always trying to know if they're good enough

.
While salvation is all of God....Jesus spoke of people being judged and cast into hell and told they did not do works that accompany salvation.


34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I was there, having been a Calvinist at one time

.


I doubt it. Your comments betray your story as not genuine. Some of your posts do not demonstrate sound doctrine at all...

 

[Iconoclast]

JamesL

Scripture says that the one born of God is not able to sin

.

all Christians sin...romans7...1 jn 1:9

There is no "habitual sin" element in 1John 3, that is a contrivance of men.

Sure there is
8 if we may say -- `we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us;

9 if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

10 if we may say -- `we have not sinned,' a liar we make Him, and His word is not in us.
from CARM;
Analysis

I have bolded the words above that I would like to focus on. In 1 John 3:9, the greek word ποιεῖ (poiei) means to do, to practice. The V3SPAI is shorthand for Verb, 3rd Person Singular, Present, Active, Indicative. Likewise, VPAN means Verb, Present, Active, Indicative.

ποιέωa: a marker of an agent relation with a numerable event--to do, to perform, to practice, to make.’ διδάσκων καὶ πορείαν ποιούμενος εἰς Ιεροσόλυμα ‘teaching as he made a journey to Jerusalem’ Lk 13:22; οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου νηστεύουσιν πυκνὰ καὶ δεήσεις ποιοῦνται ‘John’s disciples often fast and pray’ Lk 5:33; τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν ‘in your name we did many miracles’ Mt 7:22; πίστει πεποίηκεν τὸ πάσχα ‘by faith he performed the Passover’ Heb 11:28.3

So we see that the word means to do, to practice. But that isn't all. In Greek, like English, there are verb tenses: past, present, future. But in Greek, the present tense is not quite the same as the English. Instead, it is more a continuous action.

Present tense: "The verb tense where the writer portrays an action in process or a state of being with no assessment of the action’s completion."4

Finally, in 1 John 3:9 we see an infinitive form of a verb. The infinitive is "to go," "to see," "to eat," etc. This is important.

"And he cannot sin (και οὐ δυναται ἁμαρτανειν [kai ou dunatai hamartanein]). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were και οὐ δυναται ἁμαρτειν [kai ou dunatai hamartein] or ἁμαρτησαι [hamartēsai] (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive ἁμαρτανειν [hamartanein] can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of ἁμαρτανει [hamartanei] in verse 8 and ἁμαρτανων [hamartanōn] in verse 6.5

Conclusion

There is no contradiction. What is happening is that John is saying that the one who is born again does not habitually abide in sin. He may fall into it, but he does not practice it as a lifestyle. The nuances of the Greek language are not carried over to the English; but when we understand what is happening, we then see there is no problem.

Finally, any Christian who would say that he does not sin anymore fails to agree with 1 John 1:8 which says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." He would then be self-deceived.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

Here Icon is demonstrating what I wrote earlier, he understands "carnal" as our nature or constitution. To him a carnal man is unregenerate and enslaved by sin. In his view, no Christian can be carnal

.


That is the biblical view...I just believe it.
You do not:wavey::wavey:

 

[JamesL]

JamesL

I doubt it. Your comments betray your story as not genuine. Some of your posts do not demonstrate sound doctrine at all...

You just proved my point. You pointed the finger at me and accused me of lying

 

[convicted1]

Precisely!
Yet at the same time, in chapter one this is how he addresses them:

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
--the church of God, sanctified, saints. These were definitely believers (spiritual).
But they were carnal believers. They were carnal saints that Paul was reproving.

The "no such thing as carnal Christian" doctrine is relatively new.
It is a denial of the teaching found in 1Cor.3:1-4. It is amazing to me how people can take a passage, deny the truth in it, and then build a doctrine around that denial.

He was speaking to the church at Corinth en masse, imo. He was telling them to purge themselves of the old leaven, those who were living in direct contrast of how a christian is supposed to live.Those were the ones who were carnal....

 

[Winman]

Winman

That is the biblical view...I just believe it.
You do not:wavey::wavey:

Your view is NOT biblical. The first thing Paul calls these carnal persons is "brethren". He calls them "babes in Christ". And in verse 5 he says they "believed", so these cannot be unregenerate men as you falsely teach.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

So, these are real Christian brothers and they have believed, yet four times Paul says or implies they are carnal. Paul is simply describing their behavior, not their nature or constitution.

Reading without comprehension is useless.

 

[Judith]

You're not standing on scripture, but rather a faulty interpretive translation.

Scripture says that the one born of God is not able to sin. There is no "habitual sin" element in 1John 3, that is a contrivance of men

A habitual sinner is anyone who sins at will with no regards to God. It is not about types or the frequency of seen sins. It is about their life not being based on God, but rather self. That is what a true believer cannot do.

 

[convicted1]

An honest question to further the discusion along...

I know that Paul was addressing them as Brothers. TBS, whilst he was under the inspiration of the Spirit, was he able to differentiate betwixt those who were true converts and those who weren't?

We can only examine someone's walks and talks, but not their soul. Was he able to tell them apart?

 

[Judith]

An honest question to further the discusion along...

I know that Paul was addressing them as Brothers. TBS, whilst he was under the inspiration of the Spirit, was he able to differentiate betwixt those who were true converts and those who weren't?

We can only examine someone's walks and talks, but not their soul. Was he able to tell them apart?

Jesus said we would know them and gave how. Paul would have had the same tools as we have.
About being Carnal. A believer is not Carnal in the purest form. We may hold to a belief or be doing something that reflects carnality, but no believer can be carnal in their state if existence as a believer.

 

[Winman]

Jesus said we would know them and gave how. Paul would have had the same tools as we have.
About being Carnal. A believer is not Carnal in the purest form. We may hold to a belief or be doing something thta reflects carnality, but no believer can be carnal in their state if existence as a believer.

Carnal is simply the description of one's behavior at the moment, not their nature. Paul clearly said believers were "carnal" in 1 Corinthians 3.

1 Cor 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Paul directly says these persons are still (yet) carnal. These are not unbelievers, but believers as Paul plainly says in vs. 5.

So, to be carnal does not describe a state of being, our nature, our constitution, but our behavior at the moment.

Paul's whole point is for these folks to quit acting like babies and act like mature believers. If being carnal means you have an evil nature that compels you to sin, such a command would be nonsensical and completely useless.

 

[Iconoclast]

You just proved my point. You pointed the finger at me and accused me of lying

because you picked up a book that had the name Calvinism in it or walked into a church and looked into the teaching does it mean you are Calvinist and by your statements I doubt that you ever would have been a Calvinist.

 

[Judith]

Carnal is simply the description of one's behavior at the moment, not their nature. Paul clearly said believers were "carnal" in 1 Corinthians 3.

1 Cor 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

Paul directly says these persons are still (yet) carnal. These are not unbelievers, but believers as Paul plainly says in vs. 5.

So, to be carnal does not describe a state of being, our nature, our constitution, but our behavior at the moment.

Paul's whole point is for these folks to quit acting like babies and act like mature believers. If being carnal means you have an evil nature that compels you to sin, such a command would be nonsensical and completely useless.

We are only carnal in a belief or area, not lifestyle. However we could easily say of a church as a whole, as Pual is doing, that, that particular church is carnal, and still be talking to believers, but no believer is carnal in nature. We are new creations old things have passed away and all things are new.
The passage is dealing with the church as a whole, not an individual.

 

[JamesL]

because you picked up a book that had the name Calvinism in it or walked into a church and looked into the teaching does it mean you are Calvinist...

You're right. But falling headlong after the vain philosophies of Sproul, MacArthur, Pink, White, and others DOES make someone a Calvinist.

And that's what happened when I came out of Arminianism and thought the only other option was Calvinists. I fell into the same ditch that you're in. I fully understand the philosophy, the scripture twisting, the whole bit. I was there.

But you aren't obligated to believe anything I say.

 

[Winman]

We are only carnal in a belief or area, not lifestyle. However we could easily say of a church as a whole, as Pual is doing, that, that particular church is carnal, and still be talking to believers, but no believer is carnal in nature. We are new creations old things have passed away and all things are new.
The passage is dealing with the church as a whole, not an individual.

Judith, I think that you too have been convinced that being carnal or "fleshly" describes our nature, but it only describes part of us, man is more than flesh, he is also spirit, and man in his spirit can obey God.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

This was spoken by Jesus of the disciples BEFORE they received the indwelling Holy Spirit, and so is speaking of their "natural" spirit they were born with, the spirit "of man" as described in 1 Cor 2:11. In their natural spirit the disciples were quite willing to obey Jesus, Jesus himself said so. This refutes Total Inability.

It is the flesh that wars against the spirit. The disciples in their spirit really and truly did desire to stay awake and pray with Jesus as he had commanded them, but their flesh was very weak and caused them to fall asleep.

But what is important to note is that man is not simply flesh, he is spirit and mind, and in his spirit and mind he can desire to obey God. This is exactly what Paul is describing in Romans 7:14-25. Paul is describing himself as a man under the law. He wants to obey the law, but he has been brought into captivity to the law of sin and death. He has been "sold under sin".

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The moment we sin, we sell ourselves to sin (sin being personified). Sin is our master now, he owns us, we are his property, and his wage is death. This is the captivity Paul speaks of in vs. 25. It doesn't matter if we want to do good, just one sin brings us into this captivity. This does not mean we cannot do good, but it means no matter what we do, we are going to DIE, that is, be separated from God forever.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Before Paul was saved he wanted to do good (vs. 15, 18, 19, 21 and 22). Paul delighted in God's law, but he could not find a way to do it. Why? Because the law demands 100% perfection. Even if you sin only ONE TIME you are sold to sin and brought into captivity to the law of sin and death (vs. 23, 24).

Paul is teaching that a man cannot free himself from sin through his own effort. No amount of doing good would release him from his bondage. He belongs to sin now, and the wage of sin is death.

This does not mean a person who is a slave or servant of sin cannot believe. Paul clearly shows they can.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I know I am repeating myself, but Paul clearly says that we are servants or slaves to whom we "yield" (ability) ourselves, "whether" (option) of sin unto death, "or" (option) of obedience unto righteousness, again, both sin and righteousness being personified here.

We are not compelled to either sin or do good, we have option and choice. We can choose to sin unto death, or we can obey unto righteousness. Total Inability is a man-made fiction.

Paul makes this absolutely clear in vss. 17 and 18. He says these Romans "were" the servants of sin. They belonged to sin, and sin was their master. Nevertheless, while they were yet servants to sin they obeyed and believed the gospel when they heard it.

It was "being then", that is, AFTER they had obeyed and believed the gospel, it was AFTERWARD that they were made "free from sin" and "became" the servants of righteousness.

So yes, the flesh cannot please God, and the carnal mind is enmity with God, but man is more than flesh, he is spirit and mind as well, and man in his spirit can both will to obey and believe the gospel.

And even though every man sells himself to sin and comes under captivity to the law of sin and death, any man can choose to obey the gospel and be made free from sin, and become the servant or slave to righteousness, which is Jesus Christ our Lord.

An example of this is the prodigal. He was not lost at first.

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

It was only after the prodigal son willingly and knowingly chose to go out in sin that he sold himself to sin. He was "joined" to that citizen of that far country (Satan). This is when one becomes a child or servant of the devil.

Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

This is when the prodigal became a servant to sin. But he was not born that way.

Was the prodigal enslaved to his nature so that he could not repent? NO, he was able to come to himself in his mind and spirit (Rom 7) and turned home toward his father.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

Even though the prodigal was a slave and servant to the citizen of the far country (Satan) he was still quite able to come to his senses and determined to return home (repentance) to his father.

And note how when he was "yet a great way off" his father saw him. This is FOREKNOWLEDGE. This is God seeing who will repent and believe on Jesus before they actually do in time. This is whom God chooses and elects before the foundation of the world, those whom he foresees in his foreknowledge will believe the truth (2 The 2:13).

You see, it all fits perfectly once you get rid of all the false doctrine.

Men become slaves to sin when they knowingly and willingly sin, but they are able to repent and believe on Jesus, and when they do they are made free from sin and now belong to Jesus as their master.

 

[DHK]

We are only carnal in a belief or area, not lifestyle. However we could easily say of a church as a whole, as Pual is doing, that, that particular church is carnal, and still be talking to believers, but no believer is carnal in nature. We are new creations old things have passed away and all things are new.
The passage is dealing with the church as a whole, not an individual.

In Romans chapter seven, Paul describes the struggle of the two natures that resides within: the new and the old (the carnal). He blurts out: "I am carnal sold under sin."
And again: "It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me."

He is saved but he acts out a carnal lifestyle, and admits it.
Read the thread. Many of the posts are posted out of a carnal nature.
Calling people liars, accusing them of heresy, etc. is not spiritual, not the mark of a spiritual person, but rather that of a carnal person. I did not say unsaved, but carnal.

If you say that no person has a carnal lifestyle then you adhere to sinless perfection which is condemned in 1John 1:8,10.
Every Christian has a carnal lifestyle to some degree or another at some time or another. It can't be avoided. How many overweight pastors do you know? (in most cases attributed to gluttony) How many Christians do you know who go on needless buying sprees (covetousness). I wonder how many habitually cheat on taxes (stealing).
All of the above is carnality. The list could go on and on.
In fact when it comes right down to it, there are very few "spiritual" Christians IMO.