Catechisms

[Particular]

So you think Jesus had the last supper AFTER being buried and resurrected?

Please read it carefully .


We can keep showing more of the context to reveal in detail the order of events.

1 Corinthians 15

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.


You think Jesus had the last supper AFTER being buried and resurrected?

Where do you see the word supper?

Good point. I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 11 and the Passover meal Paul addresses.

The lack of support for Apostolic Succession still stands. Paul is acknowledging Matthias as a legitimate Apostle. Paul is not declaring Apostolic Succession and certainly not pimping the Church at Rome as some great church that should rule over all others.

 

[Adonia]

Paul is not declaring Apostolic Succession and certainly not pimping the Church at Rome as some great church that should rule over all others.

All that defies common sense.

1. There was but one Christian Church.

2. There was indeed a hierarchical leadership i.e. people like Paul himself and the other leaders (Bishops) of the Church. He (Paul) was completely aware of the words of Jesus where Peter was singled out for leadership.

3. This is proved by the Scriptures themselves (Corinthians, Romans, etc.) where the leadership from the home church tells the outlying churches how to live correctly the new Christian faith.

4. The historical record tells us of the newly forming Christian Church and how it grew. From the Apostles, to the Early Church Fathers, right up until the great schism between East and West. While there were a few minor sects, the great majority of Christians in the world were orthodox believers in either the Eastern or Western branches of Christianity.

 

[Particular]

All that defies common sense.

1. There was but one Christian Church.

The elect, chosen by God, is the Church. Indeed, we are one family.

2. There was indeed a hierarchical leadership i.e. people like Paul himself and the other leaders (Bishops) of the Church. He (Paul) was completely aware of the words of Jesus where Peter was singled out for leadership.

Paul established elders and deacons in each church to act much like the judges Moses chose to judge Israel. Note that God chose the Judges who would direct Israel. Not succession then and not succession in the churches.

3. This is proved by the Scriptures themselves (Corinthians, Romans, etc.) where the leadership from the home church tells the outlying churches how to live correctly the new Christian faith.

Paul gives instruction. No "home" church told everyone else what to do. Hence...Rome is one little church in one city while the other churches are also independent. No central rule. Even the Jerusalem Council is a suggestion to the other churches.

4. The historical record tells us of the newly forming Christian Church and how it grew. From the Apostles, to the Early Church Fathers, right up until the great schism between East and West. While there were a few minor sects, the great majority of Christians in the world were orthodox believers in either the Eastern or Western branches of Christianity.

Your church tells you this. Where are the documents from all the other churches? Just admit your church at Rome became a devil beast and we can end this charade.

 

[Adonia]

The elect, chosen by God, is the Church. Indeed, we are one family.

Paul established elders and deacons in each church to act much like the judges Moses chose to judge Israel. Note that God chose the Judges who would direct Israel. Not succession then and not succession in the churches.

Paul gives instruction. No "home" church told everyone else what to do. Hence...Rome is one little church in one city while the other churches are also independent. No central rule. Even the Jerusalem Council is a suggestion to the other churches.

Your church tells you this. Where are the documents from all the other churches? Just admit your church at Rome became a devil beast and we can end this charade.

Go ahead and keep you head in the sand about all of this truth, that is your problem.

 

[utilyan]

Good point. I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 11 and the Passover meal Paul addresses.

The lack of support for Apostolic Succession still stands. Paul is acknowledging Matthias as a legitimate Apostle. Paul is not declaring Apostolic Succession and certainly not pimping the Church at Rome as some great church that should rule over all others.

" Paul is acknowledging Matthias as a legitimate Apostle. Paul is not declaring Apostolic Succession"

These two statements can't reconcile. If Paul doesn't believe in Apostolic Succession then he can't accept Matthias.

We recognize Paul and I think also Barnabas as apostles too.

Notice how Paul explains how his knowledge is passed down to Timothy and how he should pass it down also.

Then he compares himself and Timothy as the Church Militant. When your General gets killed the guy underneath takes his spot, He gets command. His authority doesn't fade or disapear.

2 timothy 2

1You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.


You can find this theme of war repeated. And General leaves preparations of Command if he should fall.


1 Timothy 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.


What COMMAND is being Entrusted? Or like the King James and the ORIGINAL GREEK


This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;


That you might WAR them the GOOD WARFARE.

Ephesians 6

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, 15and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; 16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Again the theme of war against evil is echoed in the scriptures. Instructions of recruits, overseers and the entrusting of Commands are explained.

 

[Adonia]

" Paul is acknowledging Matthias as a legitimate Apostle. Paul is not declaring Apostolic Succession"

These two statements can't reconcile. If Paul doesn't believe in Apostolic Succession then he can't accept Matthias.

We recognize Paul and I think also Barnabas as apostles too.

Notice how Paul explains how his knowledge is passed down to Timothy and how he should pass it down also.

Then he compares himself and Timothy as the Church Militant. When your General gets killed the guy underneath takes his spot, He gets command. His authority doesn't fade or disapear.

2 timothy 2

1You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.


You can find this theme of war repeated. And General leaves preparations of Command if he should fall.


1 Timothy 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.


What COMMAND is being Entrusted? Or like the King James and the ORIGINAL GREEK


This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;


That you might WAR them the GOOD WARFARE.

Ephesians 6

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, 15and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; 16in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Again the theme of war against evil is echoed in the scriptures. Instructions of recruits, overseers and the entrusting of Commands are explained.

Such a thing is all a lie. It goes like this: Paul hands down directly to Brother Smyth the One True Baptist Faith Tradition in order that he carries it forward. There is no other, no Early Church Fathers, no Councils or Synods to decide things, no nothing like that. Brother Smyth was given the complete New Testament by the Apostle Paul and it was up to Brother Smyth alone to come up with the correct doctrine and that was that! You got that Utilyan?

 

[Particular]

The 1828 edition of Webster's Dictionary defines apostle as follows:

APOS'TLE, noun [Latin apostalus; Gr. to send away, to sent.] A person deputed to execute some important business; but appropriately, a disciple of Christ commissioned to preach the gospel. Twelve persons were selected by Christ for this purpose; and Judas, one of the number, proving an apostate, his place was supplied by Matthias. Acts 1:2.

Apostles (652)(apostolos from apo = from + stello = send forth) means one sent forth from by another, often with a special commission to represent another and to accomplish his work. It can be a delegate, commissioner, ambassador sent out on a mission or orders or commission and with the authority of the one who sent him. The Biblical apostles had special authority and power given by God and when they died that was the end of the special office of an apostle. In other words, contrary to what some men teach there is no Biblical mandate for "apostolic succession."

Apostle is used in two ways in the Scripture - (1) to designate an official office as in this passage (2) Generically to refer to anyone who is one sent with a message.

Apostle - Apostolos (Greek Word Study) | Precept Austin

 

[utilyan]

The 1828 edition of Webster's Dictionary defines apostle as follows:

APOS'TLE, noun [Latin apostalus; Gr. to send away, to sent.] A person deputed to execute some important business; but appropriately, a disciple of Christ commissioned to preach the gospel. Twelve persons were selected by Christ for this purpose; and Judas, one of the number, proving an apostate, his place was supplied by Matthias. Acts 1:2.

Apostles (652)(apostolos from apo = from + stello = send forth) means one sent forth from by another, often with a special commission to represent another and to accomplish his work. It can be a delegate, commissioner, ambassador sent out on a mission or orders or commission and with the authority of the one who sent him. The Biblical apostles had special authority and power given by God and when they died that was the end of the special office of an apostle. In other words, contrary to what some men teach there is no Biblical mandate for "apostolic succession."

Apostle is used in two ways in the Scripture - (1) to designate an official office as in this passage (2) Generically to refer to anyone who is one sent with a message.

Apostle - Apostolos (Greek Word Study) | Precept Austin

There isn't a biblical mandate for anything. Bible records mandates given by God and Church.

Its like saying the newspaper is the boss for keeping record.

"The Biblical apostles had special authority and power given by God and when they died that was the end of the special office of an apostle."

You can't find one verse that says this. Yet I can repeatedly bombard you with the apostles telling folks to take their command to follow their example.

2 timothy 3
10Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,

Here Paul equates that Timothy has picked up even Paul's purpose.

2 timothy 2
2The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier. 5Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules. 6The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops. 7Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

Here Paul entrusts Timothy again.


1 Timothy 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

Again Paul's command is entrusted to Timothy.

1 Timothy 5
17The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

How can Paul charge timothy to maintain the principles and to be wary of who he appoints authority?


“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]). Clement I

Here is a guy consecrated by Peter active with the apostles, Apostles are still alive when he is around.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[Earth Wind and Fire]

The RCC catechism is over 2000 points that contradict themselves. Why would any sane human being waste their time trying to untangle that pretzel? Read the Bible instead. The Bible is much more clear, concise and specific than the RCC catechism. The RCC catechism muddies it all up.

Cause their brainwashed

 

[Particular]

There isn't a biblical mandate for anything. Bible records mandates given by God and Church.

Its like saying the newspaper is the boss for keeping record.

"The Biblical apostles had special authority and power given by God and when they died that was the end of the special office of an apostle."

You can't find one verse that says this. Yet I can repeatedly bombard you with the apostles telling folks to take their command to follow their example.

2 timothy 3
10Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,

Here Paul equates that Timothy has picked up even Paul's purpose.

2 timothy 2
2The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier. 5Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules. 6The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops. 7Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

Here Paul entrusts Timothy again.


1 Timothy 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

Again Paul's command is entrusted to Timothy.

1 Timothy 5
17The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

How can Paul charge timothy to maintain the principles and to be wary of who he appoints authority?


“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]). Clement I

Here is a guy consecrated by Peter active with the apostles, Apostles are still alive when he is around.

So...no Apostolic Succession, but we follow the commands of God to make disciples.

 

[Adonia]

So...no Apostolic Succession, but we follow the commands of God to make disciples.

You claim flies in the face of the biblical and historical records.

Question: Where did we get the Bible as we now know it?

Answer: From the Bishops who succeeded the Apostles (Apostolic Succession) who were in the leadership role of the One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church around the year 300 when it was finally compiled together in it's final form.

This truth cannot be argued against or explained away. Period!

 

[Particular]

You claim flies in the face of the biblical and historical records.

Question: Where did we get the Bible as we now know it?

Answer: From the Bishops who succeeded the Apostles (Apostolic Succession) who were in the leadership role of the One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church around the year 300 when it was finally compiled together in it's final form.

This truth cannot be argued against or explained away. Period!

The documents were passed on in churches. Elders were chosen, along with deacons, as God prescribed. God preserved his work...much like he preserved Israel in the wilderness.

Once again...no Apostolic Succession, just faithful people.
What is not taught is that Rome is the mother church. Rome has spent centuries playing the harlot, like Gomer. Perhaps she will repent and be healed. Perhaps she will remain obstinate and continue her whoring.

 

[Oseas3]

There isn't a biblical mandate for anything. Bible records mandates given by God and Church.

Its like saying the newspaper is the boss for keeping record.

"The Biblical apostles had special authority and power given by God and when they died that was the end of the special office of an apostle."

You can't find one verse that says this. Yet I can repeatedly bombard you with the apostles telling folks to take their command to follow their example.

2 timothy 3
10Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,

Here Paul equates that Timothy has picked up even Paul's purpose.

2 timothy 2
2The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier. 5Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules. 6The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops. 7Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

Here Paul entrusts Timothy again.


1 Timothy 1

18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

Again Paul's command is entrusted to Timothy.

1 Timothy 5
17The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, “YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,” and “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

How can Paul charge timothy to maintain the principles and to be wary of who he appoints authority?


“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]). Clement I

Here is a guy consecrated by Peter active with the apostles, Apostles are still alive when he is around.

Paul also prophecied sayhing that "the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry...

And Paul alerted the TRUE God's people saying: If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good Minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of GOOD doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. But REFUSE profane doctrines. - Yes, REFUSE profane doctrines like the doctrines of the devilish Roman Catholic Church, the APOSTATE CHURCH.

 

[atpollard]

Your church tells you this. Where are the documents from all the other churches? Just admit your church at Rome became a devil beast and we can end this charade.

OK, John Calvin might not have condemned YOU ... you might have fit in with the way of speaking in the Reformation era.

 

[Particular]

OK, John Calvin might not have condemned YOU ... you might have fit in with the way of speaking in the Reformation era.

Indeed, I believe I have Reformation Succession in my blood. [emoji16]

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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