Catholic accounting of its plunder...

Jimmy,

You sound like a reasonable man. But if you were a Sadducee in Jesus' day you would hear exactly this tone and intensity from him. Your contention #5 is not what it says it is. If you want me to move to your viewpoint, push me over there with hard, sound and logical rebuttals.

Eusebieus and Constantine did not invent that the See of Rome had preminence. Prove this.

BTW You lost count. You have two #5 Catholic Claims, you are actually on #6.

 

Wow! A monologue! Thanks, Jim. That's neat.

*pats Jim on back*

 

I will let history speak for itself. These photos do not seem to portray a man that was anathema to the Catholic church. If He was, maybe they should have told someone. These church leaders didn't seem to quite get it.

There is a difference, there wasn't one crime Hitler commited that had not already been commited by the Catholic Church at one time. As I already showed you, he most likely got a lot of his policy ideas from the Counsil Of Basel, a policy of the Roman Catholic Church, not something they objected to at the time.

Maybe you should study better, Martin Luther King Jr. was a baptist, are you calling him a racist too?

It is Catholics who claim their history proves who they are, I am just pointing out that they are indeed right. Their history speaks well of the truth, if you are allowed to discuss ALL of it. For some reason, it seems you only like to discuss the events that are favorable to you. I think it's only fair to show the ENTIRE picture.

~Lorelei

 

Do you have dates for those photos? I'm betting you don't. And if you don't understand the reason for my question, that too will speak volumes.

 

Lorelei, you say:

I don’t think the white Baptists can really take credit for Martin Luther King Jr’s non-racist views. According to him with only small exception, it was these very people that he was was disgusted with. The southern White churches were racist and did not help the cause of racial desegregation. Here is a portion of a letter from the Birmingham Jail addressed to his dear fellow clergymen.

http://www.almaz.com/nobel/peace/MLK-jail.html

God Bless

 

Who are these Church leaders? What is their rank and influence? Do you know that they were in good standing with the Church (no, because you don't know who they are). When were the photos taken? Was Hitler in power at this time? Did Church leaders know his plans or had he acted on any of them that we know because we have hindsight?

Answer these lest you be left with assumptions and nothing more.

Provide documentation that explicitly approves of the crimes that Hitler committed. Otherwise, more assumptions. There is no doubt that men committed heinous crimes who were Catholic and did so in the name of the Church. That does not mean they had the commission or approval to commit them in the way they did.

Further, you cannot compare a man to an institution.

What a terrible answer. This was your question:

Perhaps we should now condem all Baptists because the guy who started the KKK was Baptist and so were many of his followers.

Based on your response, the following answer rebuttal is equally valid:

I am a Catholic; are you calling me a Hitler supporter?

You missed the entire point. You are condemning an institution based on the actions of individuals. Without dogmatic approval, there is no official Church approval, and thus you have no case.

Since when do Catholics say "My Church is right because of our behavior?" I love it how you never back up comments like this. We tell you time and again that the Church is full of sinners; if we were not sinners, we'd have no need of our Savior. And not everyone who bears the name "Catholic" is in fact a Catholic in fact. You would not deem every "Baptist" to be truly saved, but you demand that of Catholics, even when Catholics don't say that such is the case.

I wasn't aware that you were disallowed to that.

This coming from the person, who when faced with the KKK, pulls Martin Luther King, Jr. out of her left hand and says "LOOKIE HERE!" Please.

 

And just one more thing on the matter:

History tells us that Peter was crucified upsidedown in Rome.

And yet there is scarcely a Baptist who will agree with that. You'll call it tainted Catholic history.

But pick up "Hitler's Pope" or Foxe's book of martyrs, and it's the Gospel truth; no reason to not trust these folks.

And to say that there is not evidence to the contrary would be a lie, because there are plenty of books and publications that counter both of the afforementioned topics.

 

Lorelei
"Maybe you should study better, Martin Luther King Jr. was a baptist, are you calling him a racist too?"
I could tell you a thing or 2 about King that would make your skin crawl, but let's not soil the reputation of one of the greatest icons in the struggle against racism. Especially since King's deeds&reputation helped me a lot during my university years. He's a lot more popular in Catholic circles (including the hierarchy) than baptists often realize. Members of groups like Opus Dei that are normally somewhat hostile towards Calvinists, Lutherans, non-denominational Christians and Evangelicals opened up considerably if I said I was a baptist just like Martin Luther King.

 

Lorelei seems to have backed herself in a corner and hurling these pictures out appear to be a last defense to her sham historicity.

Surely it must be scandalizing to many how the Pope and the Catholic Church, in the words of the New York Times, were alone crying out against the crimes of Naziism while the rest of the world sat in its silence.

Surely there was no person in the world who hated the Catholic Church more than Hitler, Catholics were right alongside the Jews in the concentration camps.

Surely Martin Luther's anti-semitism was more of an inspiration to Hitler than anything else.

 

"Surely Martin Luther's anti-semitism was more of an inspiration to Hitler than anything else."
Actually I would say that 19th century secular and faux neo-pagan German anti-semitism is the root inspiration of Hitler's Jewhatred.
This German anti-semitism was in turn rooted in Luther's ideas, those ideas were a product of his bitterness towards the Jews because they did not flock en masse to the Protestant banner he raised to combat Roman Catholic corruption.
Hitler himself was RC on paper, but it is certain that he was basically an atheist.
It is worth remembring that prior to the end of WWII, movements within the prior 19 and a half centuries of Christianity that were not anti-semetic can literally be counted on the fingers of one hand (4).

 

Originally posted by jimraboin:

Exactly my point! All denominations have as their foundation Catholicism. And all therefore do what it does...stray from the truth.

Division comes from our loyalties to our religious groups. We were never commanded to have this. No. Rather, we were commanded to love one another no matter where we come from.

Jim

I would disagree some. Some denominations are from Satan. But the Christian ones have as their foundation Jesus Christ. Any time a denomination strays you will have those who will stay and try to correct things and others who will leave. Even in the midst of communism there were those who scattered and those who stayed.

 

I will let history speak for itself. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for sharing from your extensive collection of Churchmen-hobnobbing-with-Nazis photos, Lorelei.

Speaking of letting history speak for itself, I'm sure you've read this many times:
MIT BRENNENDER SORGE

 

"Surely there was no person in the world who hated the Catholic Church more than Hitler, Catholics were right alongside the Jews in the concentration camps."
So were Jehovah's witnesses, Communists and some homosexuals.
But yes, there is plenty evidence that Hitler and his cronies despised the Catholic Church establishment, because it both championed values that the Nazi's saw as weak and tried to frustrate the persecution of the Jews.The Nazi's could not move directly against the Catholic Church as long as it kept a low profile, because that would have led to huge unrest in the German ranks.
The 3 Christian factions present in Germany that did most to oppose Hitler? In random order, The bekennende Kirche, the Jehova's Witnesses and the RCC.
The 2 Christian factions present in Germany that did most to suck up to Hitler?
The nationalreligöse Bewegung Deutsche Christen (DC) and the Seven Day Adventists.

 

"History tells us that Peter was crucified upsidedown in Rome."
You'll find more churchhistorians that are willing to bet that that is true, than folks of that profession willing to bet that Paul wrote all the letters attributed to him.
I won't speculate on the question: "Is this a good thing?"

 

Can you explain what these two are? I'm guessing the 2nd is the "official" German Lutheran church, but it's only a guess.

Thanks!

 

None of these verses tells me that Rome's ideas about itself are true.</font>[/QUOTE]And please tell me, sir, to which church it applies to for the last 1500 years before the so called "Protestant Reformation"?

Please find for me, that mysterious church that existed among the only church who can trace her history back to Christ Himself.

What material did it steal, sir? Substantiate your charge, as I explain to you that the very bible New Testament you hold in your hot little hands came from that wascally ole' Catholic Church you so dispise!

And you believe this lock, stock and barrel for the only church around for the first 1500 years, wallowing in error you think, and the failed promise of Christ that "...the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Why should I, if your eyes will not see the the truth, and your soul wallows in utter bigotry?!!!

You posted this nonsense in CARM and got called down for it by a moderator!

Shame on you, jimraiboin

Let's see if the moderator is as tolorant!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

 

Hi there Pacman,

Long time no see!

You said "Please find for me, that mysterious church that existed among the only church who can trace her history back to Christ Himself."

I ask:

How about that church mentioned in Acts 7:38 and Deut 18:15...? It existed in Moses' time and precedes the Catholic Church by a few thousand years...!

Don't loose sleep over this, Pacman cuz our choice of denomination doesn't make squat with the Lord anyhow..............