Catholic Apologist claims Catholics and Muslims worship

[atpollard]

Islam God is Satan under a different guise and name

I agree.
My comment was more a commentary on the first video in the OP where a man named Joe asked a “yes/no” question that cannot be answered with a simple “yes” or “no”, then quotes Christian leaders offering honest answers that Joe mocks for not being a simple Yes or No.

 

[Cathode]

Paul said no such thing, read it again and read ALL the words, not just the words you like.

Is "worship in ignorance" actual "worship"?
What does Paul say about their worship and God's "need" for anything?
Is God really just another "UNKNOWN GOD" among the pantheon they worshiped?

You assume nobody except you has given this thought ... that is hubris. [Romans 14:4]

The hubris is hastily jumping to conclusions without understanding that there are highly intelligent people who have examined the actual question.

Even William Lane Craig jumped from the first to the second question for easy goal kicking. Everyone knows there is a difference in theology and understanding, that’s easy, and very lazy.

And you and 90% have fallen into the same trap.

Why would Paul even approach the Pagans this way? Think on that.

Why not tell them directly that they are all Satan worshippers and to repent and convert. He doesn’t do that, he points to the unknown God.

Follow the logical line, think about it.

And these are pagans, not people who profess to follow the God of Abraham, but are totally alien to him in theology.

Really think about it.

 

[atpollard]

Even William Lane Craig jumped from the first to the second question for easy goal kicking.

The first question is a logical fallacy (“excluded middle” or “false dichotomy”) that assumes a binary “YES/NO” answer exists when one does not.

There is only one GOD, however, the question of “What is worship?” is more subtle and complex. As I asked, when an Israelite offered their child in the fires to Molech as an act of worship, was that “worship” of the ONLY GOD that exists? So, too, when a Muslim prays to the ONLY GOD that exists to accept the murder of Jewish festival goers as an offering to “Allah” (Arabic for “God”), is that worship of the ONLY GOD?

Scripture claims that God overlooked past ignorance, and so God does. (God is very merciful towards our sins committed in ignorance). Scripture also claims that “there is one name by which men are saved: Jesus Christ” (This, too is true - do you not agree?). Therefore, as a thinking man who has considered both the FIRST and SECOND question, What is God’s position towards those who hear the Truth and still reject “so great a salvation”? Does God continue to overlook their unbelief (making John 3:18 a lie?)

I note that for all your pontification, you have offered no real support any of your opinions and you have felt no need to respond to any scripture that has been offered. Instead you speak of “highly intelligent people that have examined the question” which is just an “appeal to authority” fallacy. [Steven Hawkins is a highly intelligent person that believes that there is no god for anyone to pray to … does that make it true?]

 

[atpollard]

The hubris is hastily jumping to conclusions without understanding that there are highly intelligent people who have examined the actual question.

I have invested 40 of my 60+ years examining the existence and nature of God … and what He asks of us.
So, there is nothing “hasty” in my conclusions.
The Apostles John and Paul were also highly intelligent people who have explained the answer to these questions and I place more faith in the Apostolic teaching than the magisterium (or Joe the sarcastic Catholic blogger that mocks theologians for telling the truth).

 

[Dave G]

The Old Testament Israelites didn’t believe in the Trinity, were they worshipping a different God?

The Old Testament Israelites had the Scriptures, and the Scriptures tell of God the Son and God the Spirit.
Moses spoke of the Lord Jesus ( Deuteronomy 16:15-22 ), and all Israelites knew of the Holy Spirit ( 1 Samuel 10 and many other places attest to this ) .
David also spoke of His Son in the Psalms, and His Spirit as well.

In Jesus' time, the Pharisees asked Him point blank if He were the Son of God:

" But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."( Mark 14:61-62 ).

...So the Jews already knew of Him and who He is, from their own Scriptures.

Additionally, all men know of the Godhead, and we are without excuse;
God has revealed this to us as part of His creation:

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: " ( Romans 1:18-20 ).

May God bless you.

 

[Cathode]

I have invested 40 of my 60+ years examining the existence and nature of God.

Is that all. What you need is the 1000 to 2000 year perspective that ancient Christian tradition gives you.

The same hope extended Muslims, is the same hope extended you. Fact is, we are all God’s creatures, made in His image and likeness, but for the Grace of God we could be one of them in Muslim beliefs.

All helpless cries from the ditches of human history and prehistory were cries to God, whether they knew Him well enough or not.
When I see people viewing scripture with narrowed eyes, I see people who have missed the point.
Many want to be right, few want to understand.

 

[Cathode]

The Apostles John and Paul were also highly intelligent people who have explained the answer to these questions and I place more faith in the Apostolic teaching than the magisterium (or Joe the sarcastic Catholic blogger that mocks theologians for telling the truth).

Joe seems to me like someone who is encouraging more rigorous thinking, especially on Paul’s teaching here.
Sarcastic is not a word I would assign him.

People forget that Catholics have been dealing with Muslims for well over 1000 years. Lots of words have been exchanged, not to mention certain blades and arrows. It was Catholics that expelled Islam from Europe and repelled Islamic invasion of Europe, let alone all the battles to maintain and keep open the pilgrim routes to the Holy Land.

I am no fan of Islam, but that doesn’t mean I should take the lazy intellectual path that might suit my prejudices, when examining certain questions.

 

[Cathode]

The Old Testament Israelites had the Scriptures, and the Scriptures tell of God the Son and God the Spirit.
Moses spoke of the Lord Jesus ( Deuteronomy 16:15-22 ), and all Israelites knew of the Holy Spirit ( 1 Samuel 10 and many other places attest to this ) .
David also spoke of His Son in the Psalms, and His Spirit as well.

In Jesus' time, the Pharisees asked Him point blank if He were the Son of God:

" But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."( Mark 14:61-62 ).

...So the Jews already knew of Him and who He is, from their own Scriptures.

Additionally, all men know of the Godhead, and we are without excuse;
God has revealed this to us as part of His creation:

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: " ( Romans 1:18-20 ).

May God bless you.

No, the ancient Israelites were not Trinitarians, nor are the Jews today.

You are not disciplined enough to stay on the first question but have gone on to the second question.

 

[Cathode]

The first question is a logical fallacy (“excluded middle” or “false dichotomy”) that assumes a binary “YES/NO” answer exists when one does not.

The first question requires bother, and people can’t be bothered with it, so they scurry to the second question and start proof texting the hell out it. Easy, Lazy, and preaching to the choir.

It is hard to be disciplined here, but it is doable.

 

[JesusFan]

Is that all. What you need is the 1000 to 2000 year perspective that ancient Christian tradition gives you.

The same hope extended Muslims, is the same hope extended you. Fact is, we are all God’s creatures, made in His image and likeness, but for the Grace of God we could be one of them in Muslim beliefs.

All helpless cries from the ditches of human history and prehistory were cries to God, whether they knew Him well enough or not.
When I see people viewing scripture with narrowed eyes, I see people who have missed the point.
Many want to be right, few want to understand.

Islam itself came right out of pit of Hell, as its Loran and its prophet and God are all satanic counterfeits to the real things

 

[JesusFan]

The first question requires bother, and people can’t be bothered with it, so they scurry to the second question and start proof texting the hell out it. Easy, Lazy, and preaching to the choir.

It is hard to be disciplined here, but it is doable.

Muhammed was a demon possessed mad man

 

[JesusFan]

Joe seems to me like someone who is encouraging more rigorous thinking, especially on Paul’s teaching here.
Sarcastic is not a word I would assign him.

People forget that Catholics have been dealing with Muslims for well over 1000 years. Lots of words have been exchanged, not to mention certain blades and arrows. It was Catholics that expelled Islam from Europe and repelled Islamic invasion of Europe, let alone all the battles to maintain and keep open the pilgrim routes to the Holy Land.

I am no fan of Islam, but that doesn’t mean I should take the lazy intellectual path that might suit my prejudices, when examining certain questions.

Allah denies he even has a son, denies the Cross, so its satanic

 

[atpollard]

Is that all. What you need is the 1000 to 2000 year perspective that ancient Christian tradition gives you.

"Appeal to authority" fallacy.
Hinduism predates Christianity by more than a thousand yeas, so they must be correct and we must be wrong according to your argument.

 

[atpollard]

The first question requires bother, and people can’t be bothered with it, so they scurry to the second question and start proof texting the hell out it. Easy, Lazy, and preaching to the choir.

It is hard to be disciplined here, but it is doable.

I am prepared to entertain the very real possibility that a Catholic offering prayers to an icon of Mary and a Muslim offering prayers to the "Allah" that Mohamed invented in the Quran are both praying to the same "god", however, that god is not Jesus Christ ... the One True God incarnate ... that has the power to forgive sin and is still revealed in the "God-breathed" writings of men like John and Paul. In your ecumenical embrace, you offer the lost the comfort of eternal damnation by denying them the one PERSON that can actually save them.

Acts 4:12 [NIV] "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

John 14:6 [NIV] Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 10:25-30 [NIV] Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Matthew 7:13-14 [NIV] "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Yet you are content to tell Muslims that the WIDE road leads to the same destination as the NARROW road ('cause "we all pray to the same God").

 

[Cathode]

"Appeal to authority" fallacy.
Hinduism predates Christianity by more than a thousand yeas, so they must be correct and we must be wrong according to your argument.

You appealed to the authority of your 40 years of examination of certain things, ironically.

Besides, you haven’t truly examined the first question.

I’ll spell it out.

As Joes example points out.

When Sam Harris an atheist says he doesn’t believe in God and we say we do believe in God.

We are referring to the same God.

Can you see the logical point in the referent.

See, you can bypass the hoopla of the second question, by staying with the first question and nutting it out logically.

I’m surprised WLC didn’t stick it out saying it’s “complicated”, it’s actually quite simple and it is better to arrive at the conclusion on your own.

The best thing I was taught regarding essays, was “Read the damn question “. Still try to do that, fail at times, but I know why, because I didn’t read the damn question.

 

[atpollard]

As Joes example points out.

When Sam Harris an atheist says he doesn’t believe in God and we say we do believe in God.

We are referring to the same God.

Can you see the logical point in the referent.

So answer my questions about that ... when a Muslim murdered people at a music festival because God commanded it ... was that the same God as the atheist and Christian?

A simple YES or NO (as Joe requested).
[You have 2000 years of Christian thinkers to fall back on ... I only have the "word of God".]

 

[Cathode]

I am prepared to entertain the very real possibility that a Catholic offering prayers to an icon of Mary and a Muslim offering prayers to the "Allah" that Mohamed invented in the Quran are both praying to the same "god", however, that god is not Jesus Christ ... the One True God incarnate ... that has the power to forgive sin and is still revealed in the "God-breathed" writings of men like John and Paul. In your ecumenical embrace, you offer the lost the comfort of eternal damnation by denying them the one PERSON that can actually save them.

Acts 4:12 [NIV] "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

John 14:6 [NIV] Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 10:25-30 [NIV] Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Matthew 7:13-14 [NIV] "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Yet you are content to tell Muslims that the WIDE road leads to the same destination as the NARROW road ('cause "we all pray to the same God").

Through circumstance and history you have had the benefit of literacy and education and cultural enforcement and affirmation to precisely form and inform your conscience. You will be judged by that informed refined conscience.

Others will not be judged by your conscience. Don’t be so hasty as to declare who is saved or damned, judging by your conscience.

“Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ, a prophet in its informations, a monarch in its peremptoriness, a priest in its blessings and anathemas” Henry Newman.

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Sure. But a tribesman in deep jungle who is faithful to his conscience is faithful to Christ. “ I have other sheep that are not of this fold “

Many in the Muslim world are just as ignorant not knowing their arse from their elbow, all they had for breakfast was a kick to the face and live in squalor.
They haven’t had the benefit of a corn fed, air conditioned Baptist pastor to explain systematic and biblical theology to them.

If you want to make hard, narrow judgments, hard, narrow judgements will be measured unto you.

 

[Cathode]

So answer my questions about that ... when a Muslim murdered people at a music festival because God commanded it ... was that the same God as the atheist and Christian?

A simple YES or NO (as Joe requested).
[You have 2000 years of Christian thinkers to fall back on ... I only have the "word of God".]

When Anabaptists murdered people and burned towns to ashes, because God commanded it, was that the same God as the atheist and Christian?

Unfortunately, yes, it was the same God they were referring to.

Many have done horrible things in the name of the same God people refer to.

 

[atpollard]

When Anabaptists murdered people and burned towns to ashes, because God commanded it, was that the same God as the atheist and Christian?

Unfortunately, yes, it was the same God they were referring to.

Many have done horrible things in the name of the same God people refer to.

Those who murder in the name of Christ have misunderstood the clear message of Jesus.
Those who murder in the name of Allah have correctly understood the clear message of Mohammad.

You are foolish to draw equivalence between the "Lord God" and the "god of this world".

2 Timothy 3:1-9 [NIV]
1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

 

[Cathode]

Those who murder in the name of Christ have misunderstood the clear message of Jesus.

And yet they were referring to the same Jesus we do.

Like Luther calling those that raped nuns and burned their convent, “ Holy warriors “ of Christ.