Catholic Deception???

[gekko]

The word "baptism" or "baptize" is not even mentioned by Christ. Jesus was speaking to one of the sandredrin, one versed in the ceremonial use of water throughout the clean and unclean PURFICATION laws of Israel which was a symbol of the Spirit of God as Jesus demonstrates in His own use in his very next conversation about water and salvation in the very next chapter:

10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Indeed, right after Jesus finishes speaking to Nicodemus the disciples of John got in a dispute with the Jews over the ceremonial rites of purification:

Jn. 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purifying.

Paul makes it clear that baptism has nothing to do with literally saving anyone or with regneration or the power of God to save:

1 Cor. 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

you just said the same thing as me in different words... =)

 

[gekko]

The word "baptism" or "baptize" is not even mentioned by Christ.

Matthew 28:18-20
"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. God therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world. Amen."

just had to point that out for you Dr. Walter. =)

go therefore, and teach all nations -- meaning, teaching everyone to "observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" -- which also consists of being "born again" or "born of the Spirit"

anyways, whole point of this post was to show you that Jesus did say "baptize."

 

[Dr. Walter]

you just said the same thing as me in different words... =)

you are right. I misread you

 

[Gold Dragon]

If the above statement is a true summary position of the general rule embraced by Catholics, then, is it not deception by Roman apologists to argue that Rome believes people can go to heaven without baptism, as though such a belief by Rome is not carefully qualified by exceptions to this general rule?

I'm curious. Which Catholic apologists say that Rome claims people can go to heaven without baptism as a general rule?

I agree with you that these are stated as exceptions and not the general rule.

I think it is similar to how some evangelicals and baptists say that there may be rare exceptions to the rule that people need to repent and confess Christ as Lord to be saved. Those rare situations might be children under an "age of accountability", those who are disabled mentally and those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I'm curious. Which Catholic apologists say that Rome claims people can go to heaven without baptism as a general rule?

I agree with you that these are stated as exceptions and not the general rule.

I think it is similar to how some evangelicals and baptists say that there may be rare exceptions to the rule that people need to repent and confess Christ as Lord to be saved. Those rare situations might be children under an "age of accountability", those who are disabled mentally and those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel.

on this forum Thinkingstuff defends the position that Rome teaches salvation is obtainable without baptism. According to thinkingstuff you are misrepresenting Rome by saying you agree with me that these are "exceptions and not the general rule."

I understand your analogy to the Baptist position about infants and mentally handicapped persons. You are right most Baptists would claim that infants and the mentally handicapped are exceptions to the general rule. However, Baptists would still be consistent that they must be regenerated by the Spirit of God and that occurs without baptism.