Catholic Eucharist vs the Bible version - are they the same?

[DHK]

How would instituting Communion as Catholics believe against God's nature or will?

Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one God.
There is only one God.
He is not dissected, mutilated, cut up, baked, freeze-dried, etc.
Where does the RCC get all these superstitions from when the Bible is so clear about the nature of God.
He is the resurrected King of kings, Lord of lords before whom every knee shall bow and tongue confess that He is Lord to the glory of the Father, not a wafer to be eaten.
Right now he sits at the right hand of throne of God in a glorified body made of flesh and bone. It is a resurrected body; a celestial body.
It is impossible for that body to be in heaven and somehow cut up in all the RCC churches all over the world at the same time. Thus, the silliness of the superstitious Roman Catholic sacraments are exposed.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, from me :

Further, the RCC teaches that the same transsubstantiation is offered daily by its priests and that when they pronounce the words: "This is my body; this is my blood", every crumb of bread and every drop of wine consecrated by them are changed into the person of Christ.

So you don't believe the priests have the power to confect the "body and soul" of Christ and that even if they be removed from the church due to heresy they still "retain their powers" to confect the body and soul of Christ?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Where is the flesh and blood of Jesus at this moment?

In Heaven?

How would that be possible if Heaven is not a place of physical material (which it is notb

Obviously you are not responding to my post or you didn't understand what I said.

I said there is no such thing as an immaterial body of flesh and blood. If it is flesh and blood it is material by its very nature whether it is in heaven or on earth makes no difference.

There is no rational basis left for reasonable discussion "IF" your going to entertain such mental gynastics to defend your false doctrines. The very fact that you are admitting to more than one material flesh an blood body of Jesus Christ takes you beyond the realm of scripture to support your doctrine, as the scripture limits Christ to "one" not two Christs.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

So you don't believe the priests have the power to confect the "body and soul" of Christ and that even if they be removed from the church due to heresy they still "retain their powers" to confect the body and soul of Christ?

in Christ,

Bob

To believe that, I would have to disregard scripture, set my mind aside, and blindly accept what the RC hierarchy told me to believe.

 

[Matt Black]

If we need to talk about that there is no hope at all for this discussion! The body seated at the table is the only body Jesus lived and died and rose again in. It is either that body or it is not - period. There is no such thing as an immaterial body of flesh and blood - nada!

Agreed re the body seated at the table. But what about what's on the table? That's where we need to talk about what you mean by 'literal'.

 

[Matt Black]

It is inconceivable that human beings could invent such an illusion.

You are quite correct. This is not a doctrine of man, but of God

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You are quite correct. This is not a doctrine of man, but of God

:laugh: :laugh:

Thanks for helping me to start the day off with a laugh.

 

[Matt Black]

You're welcome :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You're welcome :smilewinkgrin:

Have a good day.

I appreciate being able to discuss things with you, with humor and good will, and without attributing your motives and views to Satan. Even passionate disagreement can be had without the latter.

 

[Matt Black]

Likewise.

Regards and all the best

 

[The Biblicist]

Agreed re the body seated at the table. But what about what's on the table? That's where we need to talk about what you mean by 'literal'.

Christ had no other flesh and blood body than what is seated at the table. If what they digested was any differnt in substance than what was seated at the table then Rome's doctrine is false. On the other hand if what they digested was the same flesh and blood body seated at the table Rome's doctrine is equally false as it demands the co-existence of TWO different flesh and blood bodies of Christ simelataneously. The only flesh and blood body seated at the table had no bite marks in him.

 

[Matt Black]

Define 'literal'. Define 'substance'. Does Christ dwell in every believer? How is that possible?

 

[The Biblicist]

Define 'literal'. Define 'substance'. Does Christ dwell in every believer? How is that possible?

I defined it already! The SAME flesh and blood body seated at the table. Does not transubstantation define literal in the SAME way? Does it not state it is the SAME flesh and blood body Christ was born in, lived in, died in, rose again in? Was THAT body IMMATERIAL? Is there such a thing as an IMMATERIAL flesh and blood on earth or in heaven? Does not flesh and blood have to be flesh and blood?????

 

[Matt Black]

Transubstantiation draws a distinction between the substance ie: the essence of the Body and Blood, and the accidents ie: the physical appearance. Thus what was on the table at the Last Supper after the Lord consecrated had the same substance as Him but different accidents, hence He (sitting at the table) did not bleed when they ate and drank from Him (in the Host and Chalice on the table).

Now please answer my question about whether and how Christ can be present in every believer.

 

[The Biblicist]

Transubstantiation draws a distinction between the substance ie: the essence of the Body and Blood, and the accidents ie: the physical appearance. Thus what was on the table at the Last Supper after the Lord consecrated had the same substance as Him but different accidents, hence He (sitting at the table) did not bleed when they ate and drank from Him (in the Host and Chalice on the table).

That is Rome's PHILOSOPHICAL distinction based upon TRADITION.

It is easy to discern between the spirit of error and the Spirit of truth. The Spirit of truth compares spiritual things with spiritual things to teach the truth instead of with "man's wisdom" = human philosophy

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The spirit of error compares spiritual things WITH philosophy and traditions of men to teach their errors:

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. - Col. 2:8

Where else in Scripture is this MECHANICS of transubstantiation ever taught or occurred where the substance is changed without any difference in its chemical make up, appearance or taste.

Where else in Scripture can you cite this principle between substance and accidents?????


Now please answer my question about whether and how Christ can be present in every believer.[/QUOTE]

The blood and flesh body of Christ is in heaven and is material in substance as much as it was on earth. While on earth the Divine nature of Christ was not restricted to this FLESH AND BLOOD BODY. While His flesh and blood body was on earth in view of Nicodemus he tells Nicodemus He is at the same time in heaven (Jn. 3:13). His flesh and blood body was not in heaven but He refers to His omnipresent immaterial Spirit. Likewise, his flesh and blood body is not on earth but He indwell all His elect by His omnipresent Divine Spirit.

 

[Matt Black]

Then that answers the question as to how and whether Christ can be simultaneously present at the table and on the table at the Last Supper.

 

[The Biblicist]

Then that answers the question as to how and whether Christ can be simultaneously present at the table and on the table at the Last Supper.

How in the world can you come to that conclusion UNLESS and EXCEPT you deny that the bread was transubstantiated into MATERIAL flesh in Matthew 26???????

Are you now saying that that the bread when eaten in Matthew 26 became the Divine omnipresent Spirit of Christ rather than the MATERIAL human body of Christ?

If you are asserting that the bread became the MATERIAL body of Christ when eaten in Matthew 26 then you are confessing that at the very same moment there existed TWO material bodies of Christ at that moment. The one being eaten and the one seated at the Table. No amount of mental gymnastics can escape that dilemma.

I noticed you could not provide any other example in Scripture of the principle of transubstantiation as part of God's "spiritual things." hence, your doctrine must be defended by INSERTING human wisdom, philosophical ideas and tradition rather than providing other Scriptural examples.

Matt, you are only digger a deeper hole into superstitious absurdity.

 

[Matt Black]

I think you'll find it was the Gnostics who were so keen to separate the material and the spiritual, not the Christians....

 

[The Biblicist]

I think you'll find it was the Gnostics who were so keen to separate the material and the spiritual, not the Christians....

Matt, the philosophical mechanics of how Romes explains and thus justififes transubstantiation is not found in scripture but only in pagan philosophy.

You still have TWO flesh bodies co-existing in Matthew 26 at the point of eating and NEITHER is the Divine Spiritual omnipresent nature of Christ!

 

[DHK]

Define 'literal'. Define 'substance'. Does Christ dwell in every believer? How is that possible?

Christ, in his resurrected body, a body that the disciples could see and touch, that ate fish and bread with them, that walked some miles with them, and yet was able to pass through locked doors, now sits at the right hand of the throne of God. It is flesh and blood.

How does Christ dwell in every believer?
He does so by the power of His Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

It is the Spirit of Christ that dwells in the believer, not the flesh and blood of Christ which is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit of course.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.