Catholic Inventions?

[john6:63]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Now back to a post on the actual topic -

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
#1. Rev 5:8 says NOTHINg about "SAINTS IN HEAVEN" offering OUR prayers.

#2. Rev 5:8 says it is the SAINTS PRAYERS that are offerred - So WE ARE THE SAINTS as WE pray –

Originally posted by john6:63:
[QB]
You make no sense here Bob. You state in #2 that we are the saints as we pray here on earth.

That is true. So intead of the Catholic notion that WE on earth "pray to the SAINTS" and so we can then have the saints offer OUR PRAYERS to God" (which is what you claimed)

It is in fact the SAINTS HERE "praying to God".

Surely you can see the difference.

John 6
I agree with you, BUT it is the 4 beasts and 24 elders that are falling before the Lamb (Christ) with our prayers! contridict your #1.

There is no text saying "The saints prayed TO the beasts and the 24 elders".

Nor are the beasts and the "24 elders" called "THE DEAD" the way we find the term in 2Macc and in 1Thess 4.

Which means we have NO example of "prayers TO THE DEAD" in Rev 5:8


Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

See?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Rev 5:8. The “4 beasts” are in fact high-ranking angles. The “24 elders” are not angles but redeemed man. The ONLY way redeemed man can be in heaven w/ these 4 beasts worshipping the Lord is to have passed on from this world.

Granted the text does not say that the saints on earth prayed directly to these beasts and elders, but concept is without a doubt there (just as the word “Trinity” is not found in the bible, the concept is there). These beasts and elders are in fact offering the prayers of the saints on earth to the Lord. IF the saints are praying directly to God, why then is there a need of these beasts and elders? Is there like a prayer pool, so to speak, where the beasts and elders go and dip their golden vials into to collect the prayers and then transport them to the Lamb?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
However it should be pointed out that "Millerites" as a group were never Seventh-day Adventists since there were about 50,000 Millerites and of those 50,000 only about 50 moved out to form the early Adventist group.

Ellen "White" was in fact a 17 year old teen in 1844 named Ellen Harmon who had little or no recognition among Millerites OR the early founders of the Adventist movement. Ellen Harmon was not "leading anyone" in 1844. It took years before Adventists as a group recognized the spiritual gift claimed by Ellen White. The framers of the doctrines of the church in the first few critical years came from Joseph Bates, James White, Uriah Smith and few other key leaders.

But the urban legend given out on wikipedia is a good example of myths that take on a life of their own because they make a "good story" and who wants to let inconvenient facts of history get in the way of a really good story??

In Christ,

Bob

Wikipedia - Seventh Day Adventist

...

For about 20 years, the Adventist movement was a rather unorganized group of people who held to this message. Among its greatest supporters were James White, Ellen G. White and Joseph Bates.

Later, a formally organized church called the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists was established in Battle Creek, Michigan, in May 1863, with a membership of 3,500.

Is this what you are referring to?

The dates I was using of 1844 and 1870 were to show that SDA origins well predated JW origins.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree about the genesis of the groups and the fact that Millerites were the parent organization from which the Adventists came.

But the quote seemed to imply that the early Millerite Adventists were following Ellen Harmon / Ellen White when in fact her role became prominent only after they made some very key doctrinal headway towards becoming Seventh-day Adventists.

The church did not base its beliefs on her statements as James White was very outspoken about that not being the right use of spiritual gifts.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John said --
Rev 5:8. The “4 beasts” are in fact high-ranking angles. The “24 elders” are not angles but redeemed man.

Where did you get "that" idea???

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Granted the text does not say that the saints on earth prayed directly to these beasts and elders, but concept is without a doubt

On the contrary this is the DISPUTED point that Catholicism needs to PROVE - rather than merely "assume" -- in fact bodly infer in its eisegesis of the text!

Case in point is the model of the OT priests with burning incense before the temple and in the temple. NO Jew prayed TO THE PRIESTS!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

IF the saints are praying directly to God, why then is there a need of these beasts and elders?

Just as we see in the earthly system and in the case of the Holy Spirit making our requests before the FAther - the saints STILL pray TO GOD.

In no case do we see the saints praying TO Angels, TO men, TO the dead, TO the beasts, TO the elders in heaven.

NOT EVER!

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But the quote seemed to imply that the early Millerite Adventists were following Ellen Harmon / Ellen White

That would have been a faulty implication to draw from my statements.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
when in fact her role became prominent only after they made some very key doctrinal headway towards becoming Seventh-day Adventists.

The church did not base its beliefs on her statements as James White was very outspoken about that not being the right use of spiritual gifts.

You will get no arguments about this from me.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by violet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Intellectually--I have debated Catholic apologists on this board before they left. That meant studying the issues in more detail than I had done before.

You mean "before they were banned" right? </font>[/QUOTE]You're Catholic and you're here, aren't you?

 

[mioque]

DHK
"Intellectually--I have debated Catholic apologists on this board before they left. "
"
You mean before they were banished.

"Teaching: I teach Roman Catholicism as part of a course on world religions, for it is one of the largest religions in the world."
"
You teach a course on world religions!?
Who are your pupils?

BobRyan
If a Wikipedia article contains wrong info on a subject, one can simply contact the folks behind Wikipedia with corrections and they will improve the article.

 

[Living4Him]

Teaching: I teach Roman Catholicism as part of a course on world religions, for it is one of the largest religions in the world."

Do you teach it without your own biases?

 

[Living4Him]

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

These Jews searched the OT Scriptures regarding the prophecy of the coming Messiah to see if what Paul had told them were true. That was the only thing that they could study. They didn't have any NT Scriptures that laid out the Christian way of life. They had to take Paul at his word on how a Christian should live.

 

[mioque]

DHK
"Dave Hunt's books are fairly good sources of information. What do you have against them?"
"
Wasn't Hunt the guy who claimed that the Spanish inquisition burned 300.000 people at the stake?
The real deathtoll of the Spanish Inquisition being something in the neighbourhood of 6000.

And isn't he also one of those guys who claims that the Albigenses were evangelical Christians?

 

[Living4Him]

mioque,

Dave Hunt is also the author of these "catholic inventions" that I had responded to.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by mioque:
If a Wikipedia article contains wrong info on a subject, one can simply contact the folks behind Wikipedia with corrections and they will improve the article.

It is even simpler. One can correct and improve the articles themselves. The article actually stated the ideas that Bob felt were missing. It was my presentation of the "facts" that he was opposed to.

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John said --
Rev 5:8. The “4 beasts” are in fact high-ranking angles. The “24 elders” are not angles but redeemed man.

Where did you get "that" idea???

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]LOL, from the same IFB Church that claims most Catholics are not Christian and the SDA are a cult…lol

Anyway, we can gather much information concerning angels from the bible. We read of God appearing as an Angel (Angel of the LORD). We read of Angels, as being Gods Messenger to His people and angels, who remain in Gods presence, which are IMO, and a lot of others, are the 4 beasts of Rev 5:8.

We also read of the description of these angels whom remain in God’s presence in Ezekiel 1 and 10 and also Isaiah chapter 6 and these descriptions are enough to shock any reader. So I cay say with confidence that these beasts in Rev 5:8 are angels.

For the rest of your comments concerning Rev 5:8 are noted, but wasn’t very convincing.

 

[john6:63]

Originally posted by Living4Him:
mioque,

Dave Hunt is also the author of these "catholic inventions" that I had responded to.

I heard David Hunt in a radio debate claim that Hitler and Mussolini where products of the Catholic Church used to destroy the Jews….lol

Slowly I started to realize that Hunt is a nut case, with misleading information.

 

[mioque]

Wasn't Hunt a fan of the work Alexander Hislop as well?
That would be another strike against him.

 

[rsr]

Indeed he is. So is Jack Chick, who sells Hunt's book.

 

[BobRyan]

In John6 effort to make the case for praying to the dead saints on OUR behalf --

John said --
Rev 5:8. The “4 beasts” are in fact high-ranking angles. The “24 elders” are not angles but redeemed man.

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Where did you get "that" idea???

Originally posted by john6:63:
LOL, from the same IFB Church that claims ...

So the Catholic Church gets its foundation points for praying to the dead - from YOUR IFB former church???!!!

Things are pretty strange in the RCC these days - I "guess"

John 6 --
We read of God appearing as an Angel (Angel of the LORD). We read of Angels, as being Gods Messenger to His people

Well at least you got that part right.

But NOTHING in scripture telling us that the 4 Beasts "Are saints OR angels" OR that they are "prayed TO" nor do we ever see any prayer offerred TO THEM!!

No do we find that the 24 elders are saints.

The point remains

John 6
and angels, who remain in Gods presence, which are IMO, and a lot of others, are the 4 beasts of Rev 5:8.

The part where you inject your IMO into the text is called "eisegesis".

But since the beasts are not PRAYED TO and the elders are not PRAYED TO -- the point remains.

John 6 -

We also read of the description of these angels whom remain in God’s presence in Ezekiel 1 and 10 and also Isaiah chapter 6 and these descriptions are enough to shock any reader.

True - but no text saying they are prayed TO and no text saying the 4 beasts are prayed TO much less angels.

(But if they ARE angels - how does that help your case??)

John 6 -
So I cay say with confidence that these beasts in Rev 5:8 are angels.

#1. The fact that you are "confident" about an IMO - is "nice to know" but not exegesis.

#2. In any case - how is this helping you?

John 6

For the rest of your comments concerning Rev 5:8 are noted, but wasn’t very convincing.

Yeah - that was the part where the salient points so devastating to your conjecture were mentioned. I am sure that such devastation was "not entertaining".

Inconvenient facts are seldom "interesting" when you have a good IMO-story to tell.

The facts included things like -

#1. NO case of ANYONE praying TO the beasts.

#2. NO CASE of ANYONE praying TO the 24 elders

#3. NO case of ANYONE saying the elders are the saints.

#4. THE SAINTS in Rev 5 are those ON EARTH that are PRAYING - not the Elders and not the Beasts!! The RCC wants us to pray TO The EDLERS AS IF they ARE the saints!!

I guess that is not going to be "details" that the RC doctrines would like highligted -- eh?

Understood.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

These Jews searched the OT Scriptures regarding the prophecy of the coming Messiah to see if what Paul had told them were true. That was the only thing that they could study. They didn't have any NT Scriptures that laid out the Christian way of life. They had to take Paul at his word on how a Christian should live. </font>[/QUOTE]You make too many unwarranted assumptions. Where does it say that Paul was teaching them about a Christian walk. Look at the context:

Acts 17:10-12 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Many of them believed. Believed what? How to walk the Christian walk?? No, they believed the gospel which is easily explained and told throughout many of the books of the Old Testament.

What did Philip do with the Ethiopian Eunuch?
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
--Philip preached Jesus from the Book of Isaiah which the Eunuch was reading. What was he preaching? Christ!! The gospel! It is clearly explained (as is much of the New Testament Christianity) in the Old Testament.
Christ is in the Old Testament concealed; in the New Testament revealed.
DHK