Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
[qb]Actually DT, you are in violation of BB rules. Your profile says "Christian" which is not the name of your denomination. You need to update your profile, and let us know what denomination you are. If you are not Catholic, then what are you?
Yes, I fully agree. I have seen that in many of your posts. Let me quote your words: "I don't think." I agree with you.
The only doctrinal issue that you have mentioned is Calvinism/Arminianism. I am not a Calvinist, nor am I an Arminian. Does that solve that debate for you. There are extremes on both side of the debate, and one does not have to take sides. Each has some good points. And the debate there is completely non-essential to salvation.
Would you like also to debate how many angels can stand on the point of a needle. Will that make any difference in the fellowship that Christians have with one another. Perhaps more Biblical than philosophical, I may disagree with some of our more eschattological students in what half of the Tribulation Period the two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 prophesied in. I wonder if they will break fellowship with me if I disagree with them??
We don't have to agree on every point of doctrine. But we do agree on the fundamentals. It is obvious that Catholics have never thought some things through for lack of Bible study. No, I don't see any major areas of "schism."
You need to examine what he is saying more closely. Here is a verse of Scripture that I want you to tell me the meaning of:Psst(!)--D28, this is where you chime in about "checks and balances" and how it's "a beautiful thing"...)
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
DHK
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Catholic Inventions?
- Thread starter Living4Him
- Start date
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Oh, I see. Can't refute my arguments so you're looking for a way to ban me. (Of course my profile has read "Christian" for a few years now without any hint of disapproval from the administraion of this board, and many others' profiles say "Christian" as well. Yet I am now in "violation" of the BB rules. Funny how that is.) Nice...but I wouldn't expect anything less from our esteemed moderator.
At any rate, I'm not a part of any denomination right now since I'm visiting around churches of different denominations. Although I'm still an "official" member of a Baptist church, I thought it would be disingenuous to leave my denomination as saying "Baptist" (as it was originally when I first started posting here about 4 years ago) as my views are no longer "baptist-ic".
But as you wish...I'll change my profile if that will make you happy.
The short answer: It means what it says.
What, are you suggesting that it was those holding "baptistic" beliefs which were the ones approved and made manifest? If that's the case, then I guess it took over 1500 years for this "approval" to be "manifest" since that's when the Baptists finally come on the scene. No, those approved are the orthodox Christians who faithfully held to the faith of the Apostles; the heretics are folks like the Judaizers and gnostics and all subsequent deviants from the orthodox Apostolic Christian faith.
I am not looking for anyone to ban. You left your self wide open. You have been posting as if you were a Catholic for quite some time now. Then suddenly you burst forth with this new revelation that you are not a Catholic. My question was fair. If not then what? As for your profile that is fair also--for two or three reasons. One is quite simple. Long before I ever became a moderator I have made it a habit to look at a person's profile before answering them. You might say "I like to know my adversary." In other words I like to know where a person is coming from. The word "Christian" means nothing to me. You could be Mormon, SDA, Pentecostal, Catholic, or Baptist. Which? They all call themselves Christians. So to say Christian is just being deceitful, especially when the profile particularly asks for a denomination.
Secondly, beyond my personal preference it is required by the BB administration. This is a private board, and one should at least have the integrity to follow their rules.
Third, the anemic excuse "because everyone else jumps off the bridge and commits suicide, I should do it too," doesn't cut it. In other words, just because you see other people breaking the rules doesn't make it right does it?
Fouth, I doubt very much that if for correcting a wrong made in the past that you will be banned. That is not my intention, nor do I want to see it. My position: Honesty is the best policy.
Thank youAt any rate, I'm not a part of any denomination right now since I'm visiting around churches of different denominations. Although I'm still an "official" member of a Baptist church, I thought it would be disingenuous to leave my denomination as saying "Baptist" (as it was originally when I first started posting here about 4 years ago) as my views are no longer "baptist-ic".
But as you wish...I'll change my profile if that will make you happy.
Yep, It says what it means. So let SS do its work.The short answer: It means what it says.
What, are you suggesting that it was those holding "baptistic" beliefs which were the ones approved and made manifest? If that's the case, then I guess it took over 1500 years for this "approval" to be "manifest" since that's when the Baptists finally come on the scene. No, those approved are the orthodox Christians who faithfully held to the faith of the Apostles; the heretics are folks like the Judaizers and gnostics and all subsequent deviants from the orthodox Apostolic Christian faith.
The word heresies are schisms or divisions to be more accurate. But they were caused by false teachers. You can note all the problems and false doctrine that the church was caught up in by the problems that Paul addresses chapter by chapter, until it climaxes in chapter 15, where he addresses those that deny the resurrection itself.
And Paul says that these heresies, that are in the church, are good. In other words differences of doctrine are good. It was good to have some difference of doctrine within the church. Why? There werent' any apostles in the church at Corinth. The closest would have been Apollos who Paul appointed as his successor. The "heresies" or differences in doctrine would have driven them to SS, that is, to study the Scriptures (like the Bereans did). Only by personal study of the Scriptures did they find "who was approved among them," and who was not. It was the Scripture that became and was their standard.
DHK
violet,
You quoted this scripture...
Try it some time...you'll be blessed by the results. But you absolutly MUST dump the magesterium. It is imperative. Take the magesterium off of the throne, and put God back on it where He belongs.
God bless,
Mike
You quoted this scripture...
And then said...
And that is precisely what God is doing. Personally guiding us into all truth. Not some truth, but ALL truth.
Of course not. We dont pick and choose, we trust the Holy Spirit to open our understanding as He sees fit.
Try it some time...you'll be blessed by the results. But you absolutly MUST dump the magesterium. It is imperative. Take the magesterium off of the throne, and put God back on it where He belongs.
God bless,
Mike
DoubtingThomas,
There is only one church, DT. Not many. Not multitudes. God has a grand total of ONE group of people on earth who are the church.
It has absolutly nothing to do with denominations. ZERO. The church is nothing more than all the born again people on earth. Period. In all christian groups there is a mixture of born of the Spirit christians unfortunetly mixed in with unregenerate lost people who are on the "membership roll" for any of a million reasons other than born of the Spirit.
In some fellowships there is probably a high percentage of saved people(compared to a low percentage of lost "church members"), due to the true gospel being proclaimed, true teaching be taught, and Gods people walking in the freedom God has given to them.
In other groups, like the Catholic Church, there is surely an exceedingly high percentage of lost "church members" and a very low percentage of folks who have stumbled upon saving faith, usually in spite of what is being taught there.
But all of those saved people, in all of those groups, are all part of the ONE CHURCH.
I hope this is beneficial for you.
Blessings,
Mike
OK, lets go back to Truth School "101" again.
There is only one church, DT. Not many. Not multitudes. God has a grand total of ONE group of people on earth who are the church.
It has absolutly nothing to do with denominations. ZERO. The church is nothing more than all the born again people on earth. Period. In all christian groups there is a mixture of born of the Spirit christians unfortunetly mixed in with unregenerate lost people who are on the "membership roll" for any of a million reasons other than born of the Spirit.
In some fellowships there is probably a high percentage of saved people(compared to a low percentage of lost "church members"), due to the true gospel being proclaimed, true teaching be taught, and Gods people walking in the freedom God has given to them.
In other groups, like the Catholic Church, there is surely an exceedingly high percentage of lost "church members" and a very low percentage of folks who have stumbled upon saving faith, usually in spite of what is being taught there.
But all of those saved people, in all of those groups, are all part of the ONE CHURCH.
I hope this is beneficial for you.
Blessings,
Mike
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
OK, lets go back to Truth School "101" again.
There is only one church, DT. Not many. Not multitudes. God has a grand total of ONE group of people on earth who are the church. </font>[/QUOTE]Yep.
You're right--The Church isn't a denomination. Glad you can admit that.
Whoever is ultimately saved is up to God. However, He established one visible Church, not a group of schismatic, contradictory denominations.
That's the Truth, and nothing but the Truth.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
That's because you have assumed too much. I'm not nor ever have been a Roman Catholic.
Wow, where did you get that from the context of the passage? Way to read a 16th century doctrine (sola Scriptura) back into that passage.
I'll say it again, but this time add a little more:
The approved are the orthodox Christians who faithfully held to the faith of the Apostles; the heretics are folks like the Judaizers and gnostics and all subsequent deviants from the orthodox Apostolic Christian faith. The "standard" was the apostolic tradition, delievered orally or by epistle (2 Thess 2:15) and maintained in the Church which is the ground and pillar of the Truth (1 Timothy 3:15).
Doubting Thomas,
"The Church" is nothing more than all of those who are born again. They can be in many many organisations, but no "organisation" is "the church."
The only groups who make that claim are groups like the Catholic Church and Jehovahs Witnesses.
God bless,
Mike
Of course we are visible. Christians dont become invisible immedietly upon being born again.
"The Church" is nothing more than all of those who are born again. They can be in many many organisations, but no "organisation" is "the church."
The only groups who make that claim are groups like the Catholic Church and Jehovahs Witnesses.
God bless,
Mike
S
Sirach
Guest
http://www.catholic.com/library/Catholic_Inventions.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/More_Catholic_Inventions.asp
The other side.
God Bless,
Sirach
http://www.catholic.com/library/More_Catholic_Inventions.asp
The other side.
God Bless,
Sirach
I have a different view on ecclesiology than most on this board, even than many of my Baptist brethren, but that is soul liberty, and it comes from sola scriptura. In other words I have the liberty to believe what I believe the Bible is teaching to be true, and still remain in fellowship with other born again believers. These are two Baptist distinctives that we hold very dearly. They are also two distinctives that the Catholic Church hates.
Having said that, here is what I believe the Bible teaches.
When a person is born again he becomes part of the family of God. In John 1:12 we are called the children of God. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. We are all of one large family, united together by the bond of salvation through the blood of Christ.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
The word "church" in the Greek is "ekklesia" and always has the meaning of "assembly." It does not mean denomination or organization, such as the RCC. It always refers to a local assembly. That is the only meaning of the word--assembly.
It is impossible to have an "unassembled" assembly, and thus a "universal" church. Thus the concept of a "catholic" church is thrown right out the window, even in the broadest sense of the term. There is no such thing as a universal or catholic church. Every church is local. An assembly is always local. It simply means congregation. A church is a congregation, and that is all.
Paul went on three missionary journeys and established about 100 independent assemblies, not a denomination. Each assembly was independent of the other. There was never any hierarchy. The church in Rome did not have power over the church in Ephesus or Philippi or any other assembly. That only happened in the fourth century when a part of Christendom became paganized and the Catholic Church was formed.
Someday the church will be both universal and visible.
Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
When the "church" is gathered in heaven it will be both visible and universal. It will be composed of all believers. Until then it will never be universal and visible at the same time. The church, as an assembly is always visible, but never universal.
Today, in this day of grace, is the "Church Age," where God is working through his institution which he has ordained, the local church.
Never in Scripture do we ever find any concept of the Catholic Church. Not even in the broadest sense of the word, is the church (assembly) ever catholic.
DHK
Having said that, here is what I believe the Bible teaches.
When a person is born again he becomes part of the family of God. In John 1:12 we are called the children of God. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. We are all of one large family, united together by the bond of salvation through the blood of Christ.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
The word "church" in the Greek is "ekklesia" and always has the meaning of "assembly." It does not mean denomination or organization, such as the RCC. It always refers to a local assembly. That is the only meaning of the word--assembly.
It is impossible to have an "unassembled" assembly, and thus a "universal" church. Thus the concept of a "catholic" church is thrown right out the window, even in the broadest sense of the term. There is no such thing as a universal or catholic church. Every church is local. An assembly is always local. It simply means congregation. A church is a congregation, and that is all.
Paul went on three missionary journeys and established about 100 independent assemblies, not a denomination. Each assembly was independent of the other. There was never any hierarchy. The church in Rome did not have power over the church in Ephesus or Philippi or any other assembly. That only happened in the fourth century when a part of Christendom became paganized and the Catholic Church was formed.
Someday the church will be both universal and visible.
Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
When the "church" is gathered in heaven it will be both visible and universal. It will be composed of all believers. Until then it will never be universal and visible at the same time. The church, as an assembly is always visible, but never universal.
Today, in this day of grace, is the "Church Age," where God is working through his institution which he has ordained, the local church.
Never in Scripture do we ever find any concept of the Catholic Church. Not even in the broadest sense of the word, is the church (assembly) ever catholic.
DHK