Catholic or Protestant ? : ANSWERS

Good job at not addressing the issue, Sola. That's okay, I do not call Jesus a liar. But you can continue your false witness against me if you like.

Neal

 

The one and only time faith and only are used in the Bible is,indeed, in James 2:24.The Bible says in James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.

Language employs three methods to impart understanding. One, a declarative statement is made. Two, An example is used. Three, a thing is implied by the TOATLITY OF THE HARMONIOUS EVIDENCE. It is unfortunate that we have forgotten the middle school rules to language as it concerns the most important book man will ever read. By ignoring or not applying the methodology of the way language functions, one is doomed to failure in properly understanding any work of literature, even the God's Word.
This is the case with many Biblical subjects. The attitude of " well it does not say not to, or to do it that way" is a sad commmentary on the ignorance that surrounds the world and understanding the Bible. This reasoning is irrational and illogical.
For example, the Bible does not say to use hashish in worshipping God. Is it allowable because it does not declare it? If not , why not?
The Bible does not say we are not to eat steak and potatoes for the Lord' Supper. Since it is not so stated, is it acceptable in the eyes of God? If not why not?
It is apparent that a large percentage of people need a refresher course on the topic of " How Language Works."

 

Neal, if you believed Jesus as you claim, you would believe that "baptism now saves us" because the one whom He sent to preach said that. But, in disbelieving this, you prove that you don't believe Jesus. Therefore, when Romans 10 said believers would be saved, Baptists (including you) were excluded, because they don't believe Jesus.

 

Here are my answers:

1. a & b
2. neither; our souls are indwelt with the life of God.
3. a & b
4. a & b
5. b
6. a & b
7. a & b
8. a & b
9. a & b
10. a & b

I noticed numerous false dichotomies in the questions, which makes many of them unanswerable in the sense of either/or because the Catholic answer is both/and.

As I've stated above, our justification is our becoming sons in Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, and this process begins with regeneration (initial justification) and sanctification (ongoing justification). In fact, sanctification occurs at our initial justification because our sanctification is, essentially, what the Spirit does. The Spirit comes to us, indwells our souls, and makes us children of God.

Justification is the action attributed to the Son, and Sanctification is the action attributed to the Holy Spirit. The two actions are inseparable because sanctification is nothing other than the initial making and subsequent conforming of us into the image of the Son of God.

The Protestant error is to limit justification to the moment of regeneration. Catholics in no way deny that this is when we become children of God and are justified; we affirm this part of the Protestant affirmation. It is the error of Protestantism to deny the following two truths (in whatever words):

1. That our justification is our filial sonship, sharing in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

2. That we grow in our sonship by sanctification (1 Cor 1:30 & Rom 6:19.22).

In Catholic teaching, our sanctification isn't just some nice thing that happens to us after we're justified, which helps our relationship with God. Our sanctification is our being conformed "to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren" (Romans 8:29), which - as you would probably guess - I find to be the Biblical teaching.

In Romans 4:25, Paul tell us that Christ was "handed over for our transgressions and was raised for our justification". If our justification entails only our being declared righteous due to Christ's atonement for our sin (i.e., "handed over for our transgressions"), then it doesn't quite make sense why Paul says that Christ's resurrection was for our justification. Unless, of course, if the new life of the resurrection (i.e., our sanctification) is our very justification; that is, our being made sons of God in the only Son of God, conformed to his image.

[ June 17, 2003, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

You have got a problem, I have been baptized. Every Baptist I know has been. Therefore we have been obedient to this command. It doesn't matter if we think it saves us, we have done it so we are saved, at least if you point is that we have to be baptized to be saved. And do you deny someone salvation if they receive Christ and die before they can be baptized?

Neal

 

Amen Carson. That is why I didn't take it. In context I agree that in most cases either answer is acceptable.

 

Christ was "raised for our justification" because without the "Acceptance of the sacrifice" which the resurrection demonstrates - we would not be justified.

Once you agree that at the moment of accepting Christ as our savior - we are born-again, justified by faith and fully prepared for the 2nd coming - to walk right into the pearly gates --- (no priest, no baptism, no works) - you basically have the non-Catholic view.

What happens "after that moment" is a discussion of sanctification and how justification works in that context - the context of "perserverence of the saints" (you know, the people of God that are alive) and growing in Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What is the will of God but that the human flesh, the carnal nature, be sacrificed that the Spirit of God can live and rule in our lives.
It is Christ who sacrificed His life and paid the penalty for sin, that in Him you might have life and the forgiveness of sins. By faith the Christian accepts his own death in Christ. When Jesus died on the cross He took our sins with Him. It was our sinful nature that was crucified on the cross with Christ.

(Rom 6:1-8) "6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is free from sin."

If by faith you accept your death in Christ then you are free from sin, you are justified. In fact all people have already been justified in Christ if they would just care to accept it.

For "Christ died for all, therefore all died" (2 Cor. 5; 14-17). "18 So then through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." (Rom. 5: 12-21)

The provisions have already been made, you and I are the sons and daughters of God, for we have been "bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are Gods." and again "Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." (1 Cor. 6; 20 & 7: 23) The whole of the human race were in Christ when He died on the cross, and were justified in Him, if they would just care to accept it.

In Romans chapter 5: 12-21 it is clearly pointed out that we all became sinners through or in Adam, in as much as we inherited his sinful nature. On the other hand we all can become righteous through and in Christ by inheriting His divine nature. So we see that we all were in Adam when he sinned and we all were in Christ when He performed the righteous act of the crucifixion. Because of this we all have a choice to make, do I continue to serve self in sin or do I serve Christ through righteousness, beginning with the crucifixion of self by faith in Christ.

"5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus;
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil. 2: 5-8)

The way of the cross is the first and continual act of following Christ. It is justification and sanctification for the Christian. This one righteous act by Jesus was but the literal fulfillment of what had been going on spiritually in His life from the beginning. Sacrificing the will of His own human sinful nature in the flesh and allowing God's will to be performed in Him.

"28 Then said Jesus unto them, when ye have lifted up the son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8: 28& 29)

When Jesus said that he did nothing of himself he must have been referring to his human nature and divine nature for He possessed both. However it was only his human nature that would ever do something other than what God wanted. It was this nature that he crucified continually while here on earth and finally ended all together on the cross. Both Christ's divine and human natures were yielded up on the cross, however only one was never to rise again, and this is salvation. By faith we enter into this experience, crucifying the old man that Christ might live in and through us, creating a new creature (Rom. 6).

Christ came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it (Matt. 5; 17 & 18), He is the only man that ever fulfilled the law and the only man that ever will. In order for God's law to be fulfilled in us, Christ must be in us, and if Christ is in us, then there is no room for self. Self must be crucified with Christ that Christ might fully dwell within us.

"20 I am crucified with Christ: never the less I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of god, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal. 2; 20 & 21)

Those who understand that they have died with Christ, must also understand that they are no longer alive, and if so, someone or something must live in their place. That someone is Christ, for this is God's purpose in our salvation. Not just that our past sins be forgiven but that we might have a new life of righteousness, Christ's righteousness.

"3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit" (Rom. 8: 3 & 4)

So then in Christ we are justified, because self is no longer alive and self is what is condemned by the law, and when Christ is in us we are sanctified because Christ is righteous, He is the fulfillment of the law. This is not a one time experience, this is the Christian experience. Paul says "I die daily" (1 Cor. 15: 31)

There is no sanctification without justification, and there is no justification without sanctification. For if I am justified in Christ then I am dead, and if I am dead then someone must live in me and that someone must be Christ, unless I am dead indeed. If Christ lives in me then I am sanctified because He is righteous, but if not then I must be alive, and if I am alive then I am not justified for I am condemned by the law being a sinner. Certainly I cannot be sanctified on my own account for I am carnal a slave to sin. So we see that you can not have one without the other.

The Christian experience is the setting aside of mans desires and purposes, that is those of the flesh, and the fulfillment of God's desires and purposes within you, that is those of the Spirit. This is a continual process that never ends, if and when it does end it is the beginning of the end of God's purpose in your life.

Those who constitute God's people today are those who are living this experience, that is they are living by the Spirit and not by the flesh. For to be one of Gods people has nothing to do with the flesh or of the flesh. Israel are those in the Spirit and not in the flesh, for the flesh cannot see the kingdom of God, regardless of what race, religion, or nationality it is.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith