Carson,
You indicated that people actually hear the gospel during a mass, wich led me to say...
"Where in the mass are the people there told that they can be 100% reconciled to God, with Heaven secured as their destination immedietly after their last breath, through faith alone, at the complete exclusion of anything and everything they do?"
And you then said...
"Would you please show me where, in Scripture, the Gospel is described as you describe it?"
If I tried I would still be here 8 hours from now typing away when the sun comes up.
"The Gospel is that our God has been made King through the Paschal Mystery of the Passion, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of the God-Man, Jesus Christ, and that it is through this great eschatological event that our God has dealt with sin and death justly, thus blessing all the nations through His servant Israel."
You didnt share the most important part of the Gospel...how one can be justified before God and be eternally saved.
That is through faith, and
faith alone in Christ substitutionary work on our behalf.
"The term "Gospel" isn't an invention of Paul or any of the Apostles. It comes from Isaiah 52:7, which precedes Isaiah 53."
I appreciate that, but that doesnt have anything to do with what we are talking about. This is
now, and right now the gospel...or "good news"...is what saves us.
"If you think "the Gospel" is a timeless system of salvation,..."
I'm really not interested in whether its a "timeless system of salvation"(whatever you mean by that) or not. Its what saves us
now however.
I am a dispensationalist and I do understand that in different dispensations God had dealt with His people in different ways, but with
faith being at the heart of them at all times.(Such as the jews
faith in Gods faithfullness to them through the sacrifice of the animals, which represented Christ of course.)
"...you haven't been reading your Bible."
Trust me. I have. I quit neglecting it after I was pulled from the clutches of the CC, and birthed into the body of Christ.
"You've been attending a Baptist Church."
I havent been in a Baptist church for several months now, since the last time I visited my father in laws church. I have fellowshpped in Baptist churches a couple of times during my 24 years as a child of God, and I thank God for the baptists, but I dont see eye to eye with them in some areas, which is no big deal of course, and we currently attend a non-denominational charismatic fellowship. I do agree with the baptists in some very wonderful areas, such as the truth of our complete eternal security as children of God.
"Certainly, the Gospel has soteriological implications when one submits to God's Kingship,..."
Submitting to Gods Kingship will affect our walk here on earth, but that is not a condition for salvation. That would be a gospel of works.
"...but the Gospel is not to be equated with "how one gets saved"."
It most certainly is. What you are referring to could be said much more accuratly by saying that the Gospel not only affects escaping hell and gaining heaven, but
also how to experience a new, and abundant life here and now.
But the former(salvation) is not determined by the latter(new life). Rather, the latter is determied by the former.
"...It is that our God has been made King."
That part of the gospel, no doubt.
I said...
"In the Coucil of Trent cursings the Catholic Church curses anyone who believes what I just posted up there"
And you said...
"You do not know what you criticize."
Well, lets see...
God says this(just one verse among multitudes)...
"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."
And the CC says...
CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.
If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed (Canon 9).
If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed (Canon 12).
Canon 8. If anyone says that by the sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred ex opere operato, but that faith alone in the divine promise is sufficient to obtain grace, let him be anathema.
Canon 16. If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation, let him be anathema
Canon 3. If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism,[11] let him be anathema.
It pretty clear, actually.
"Trent, in issuing "anathema sit" statements, isn't cursing anyone. This is a formal declaration that whoever obstinately denies various articles of faith or embraces heretical doctrines are prone to excommunication."
Thats right. Those who hold to the truth of the goepel, as found in the scriptures, will be cursed by the CC, and ex-communicated.
"These statements were only directed at Catholics and were then juridically applied through the process of canon law."
Right. If the catholic decides to take a stand for Gods gospel, he will be condemned and ex-communicated.
"The problem with ex-Catholics is that they think they know Catholicism because they were "raised Catholic". I have news for you, brother. Just because you were "raised Catholic" doesn't mean that you know squat."
I agree. Its not just because I was raised catholic. Its because I was raised catholic, went through 8 years of catholic school including religion class and catechism instruction, went through the teen age training classes that were offered, spent considerable time on interent discussion boards
listening to catholics share their faith and defend catholic teachings, spent vast sums of time digging into catholic sources like the Catholic Encyclopedia, online catholic catechism, the Vatican web-site, and spent much time listening to catholic apologists on EWTN.
And then from taking catholic teachings that catholics apologists themselves have shared with me, and comparing them with the word of Almighty God on those same things, and discovering that time after time after time the word of God says
this...when the word of the catholic church says
that.
"I underwent 12 years of supposed "religious education" (composed of memorizing the "Hail Mary" and constructing useless collages) and sat through Mass every Sunday without ever being taught the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, which is the source and summit of the Christian life."
If you want to believe that the summit of the Christian life is
eating the Lord Jesus Christ, that is your buisiness.
The scriptures teach us that the summit of the christian life is having the Lord Jesus Christ live His life in and through us, and that is done through
faith...not
eating Jesus.
"As you have recieved Christ Jesus(by faith[/b],
so walk ye in Him"(by faith)
"It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me. And the life that I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
"It wasn't until college that I was educated in the Bible and Christian doctrine."
Well, I know some people who have never spent one second in college who know Gods word, and the truths found there, more fully then people who have spent
years in cemetary...I mean seminary.
God bless,
Mike
[ February 15, 2004, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: D28guy ]
