Catholic Question

[time like this]

To understand that Mary was full of grace simply means she had favor with God. Mary was born from a natural man. And given such she had a natural sin nature within her. Does not mean that she acted on this nature but it exists in every person born from the seed of adam not eve. the seed from the man is passed on thru the woman. this is how she is able to give birth to a sinnless child from the seed of God only his nature is passed on. if you ask a woman she will inform you that her blood is not shared with the child she carries. and if her blood is mixed with the unborn their arises great complications. so only the nutrueints from food are passed to the unborn. and mary had a natural pregnancy even though the seed came by the spirit of God. understanding this pricipal of God's nature a law of nature. mary could have a sin nature and be in need of the savior she carried. scripture says she was blessed among woman, but she was not the blessing. and not capable of blessing in the manner that jesus came for. so Jesus being born of an uncorruptible seed can be holy even if the woman who carried him was not.

 

[raymond]

>>>>the seed came by the spirit of God. understanding this pricipal of God's nature a law of nature. mary could have a sin nature and be in need of the savior she carried. scripture says she was blessed among woman, but she was not the blessing. and not capable of blessing in the manner that jesus came for. so Jesus being born of an uncorruptible seed can be holy even if the woman who carried him was not.>>>>

Dear Times,

What you are saying is that Jesus did not receive His human nature from Mary. This is a denial of the Incarnation. Don't you believe that the name "Son of Man" indicates that everything human about Jesus would have to have been derived from His only human parent? Otherwise, Jesus would have been a mixture, half-from the race of Adam, half ........

raymond

 

[Briguy]

Hey Grant and daniel, hope you are well!!

Where is "full of grace" found in the Bible. I ran a search for it in the KJV and it did not come up. What versions use that phrase? and why doesn't the KJV?

Also on the question of Mary having other children, I found these two verses.

Matt.13
[55] Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Matt.27
[56] Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

Would the explanation be that Mary is called "mother" of these two nephews even though perhaps she was their aunt. Why use mother here. Or do you think the Mary in verse 56 is not Mary, the mother of Jesus. Thanks for your time. It seems in just a quick reading that Joses had a mother named Mary and was a relative of Jesus. Reason would say that they were brothers, Jesus and Joses that is. Of course this is just a quick look without any depth at all, I am willing to be corrected if need be.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

Hi raymond, I know what you are saying. The point I always remind myself of is that God is beyond time and our reason. Jesus was all man and all God because God says so and did things in that manor. I don't think we should say that Jesus would have had to been born at all for Him to have 100% humanity. Remember, Adam was a 100% man, made from dust. God chose Mary but I think it would be wrong to say that God, needed Mary. Just some thoughts to ponder as we approach the celebration of the resurection.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[Daniel Vollmer]

Hi Brian,

I am doing very well, thanks for asking. We finally got some warm weather up here in the northeast.

I will try and explain our understanding of these verses you pointed out to me.

Matt.13
[55] Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Matt.27
[56] Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.

I am by no means an expert but and we do not know that answers to many things. I guess thats why they are called mysteries. I know one belief is that there was too Mary's with one being the Blessed Virgin Marys cousin or relative. In this case Matthew 13:55 would be refering to Mary his mother, but James and Joses would be sons of the other Mary and would be Jesus's cousins and would also be called brothers of Jesus.

As Catholics we feel this is supported in Matthew 27:56 because They never mention that Mary in this case is the mother of Jesus. It would be very strange to mention the other brothers and not Jesus since he is the central character so to speak.

Another reason we feel that James and Joses are not the sons of the Blessed Virgin Mary is because Jesus from the Cross gave his mother to John to take care of her. This would have been unthinkable and an insult to any brothers of Jesus since it is traditionally the obligation of the sons to take care of their mother.

I hope this helps you to better understand our beliefs. While I am not sure of the importance of believing that Mary remained a virgin, it is part of our faith.

May God Bless You and Keep You

Yours in Christ
Daniel

 

[raymond]

Briguy >>>>The point I always remind myself of is that God is beyond time and our reason. Jesus was all man and all God because God says so and did things in that manor. I don't think we should say that Jesus would have had to been born at all for Him to have 100% humanity. <<<

Dear Briguy,

I believe
God is capable of creating perfect humans out of dust or even ex nihilo. These however would not be children of Adam. They would be copies, not children. I don't believe even God almighty can declare that duplicates are not duplicates.

In the same way, if Our Lord was half 'Son of Adam', and half newly duplicated humanity, then Jesus could not be said to be like us in every way except with respect to sin.

your brother

 

[GraceSaves]

Brian,

I am with Raymond. God can certainly create man out of thin air if He wishes.

But if Mary had no biological ties to Jesus (and thus, did not derive His humanity from her), then He (Jesus) was not of the lineage of David, which the Gospels take great care in providing geneologies for that specific reason. Thoughts?

God bless,

Grant

 

[time like this]

Raymond

Jesus is the "only begotten" of God meaning he caused him to exist in the flesh that we could see God's glory thru him. of course he was human. 100%. But the princile within the seed he was conceived of was from God. fact of nature that every seed has an embryo within it. that embryo within the seed comes from the father, was caused to exist in mary that the son of man would be made manifest to all. this is the relationship that we have with Jesus the Christ that he lived and felt as we do. Heb.4:15 FOR WE HAVE NOT AN HIGH PRIEST WHICH CANNOT BE TOUCHED WITH THE FEELING OF OUR INFIRMITIES;BUT WAS IN ALL POINTS TEMPTED LIKE AS WE ARE,YET WITHOUT SIN.
I take great comfort in knowing that he understands because he once was a man. he is my blessing from God unto salvation
i love him

 

[raymond]

Times>>>But the princile within the seed he was conceived of was from God. fact of nature that every seed has an embryo within it. that embryo within the seed comes from the father<<<<

Dear Times,

I am either not understanding you here, or else you are totally misinformed about the birds and the bees........

What do you mean the "embryo comes from the father"?!!!

raymond

 

[GraceSaves]

Time,

I have no idea what you are referring to either. Also, how do you maintain, according to this, that Jesus is the "Son of David," since he has no biological ties to him?

God bless,

Grant

 

[time like this]

Ray

when i state embryo in the seed. the embyo within the seed is the princple or source of the seed giver. like a apple tree gives apple seed after its kind. basic seed princple from genesis. God seed in mary would produce after his kind and not adam. but Jesus had to be born of the woman the seed of the woman placed by God. giving him his davidical lineage. the embryo grows in the woman as a result of her recieving seed. just as plants gron after the ground receives seed. same law of nature. this is how the spiritual seed takes on a human body. i only introduced this to show that Jesus was the blessing not mary even though she was blessed among woman. full of grace favor with God. his seed within her. once the supernatural took place eveything else was as we understand a birth to take place. he had to be human and from the tribe of Judah or else scripture would not be fulfilled. this is the argumnet scripture speaks of him in types and shadows thru-out the O.T. not mary. our focus is to be toward him. his is the only named mentioned in which mankind can be saved.to introduce Jesus plus anybody else is a false teaching that parralles alot of pagan teachings of the those times. sorry if my example of seed brought more confusion

 

[Briguy]

Time, interesting stuff, I will explore that line of reasoning later.

Grant and Daniel, In looking into Luke 1:28, I think that is where the idea of "full of grace" or "filled with grace" comes from. According to the very brief commentary I looked at it said that the phrase, which in Greek can be translated "full of Grace" is used only one other time in the NT. It is the same exact word or words (I don't know how many Greek words it takes for that phrase) used in Eph 1:26 or is it 2:26. It is in reference to the grace that "believers" had. That taken with my post about us having to be filled or completed in grace to enter heaven is atually pretty interesting stuff. I apologise for tooting my own horn there. Think about what I said as I ponder both of your last posts.

Your Christian brother,
Brian