Catholic Taliban?

[DHK]

You won't get a straight answer from DHK. He will continue to dodge your questions and say they are not relevant. Of course they are relevant and you are absolutely right. DHK is out of gas on this.

Targus doesn't even present arguments that make sense.
For example the issue of contraceptives is a non-issue to most people. It is nowhere near the severity of prostitution, abortion, murder, etc. One cannot make those comparisons. Here is a brief example:

[FONT=&quot]he Pope's recent concern has been over the secularization of Poland where, in 1991, at least at least 81% of Poles did not believe the Catholic Church had the right to demand submission to its contraception policies,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] http://www.ideaconnection.com/solutions/5604-Religious-opposition-to-birth-control.html

This is just one example. 81% of the population of a mostly Roman Catholic country do not believe in contraception. It is a non-issue. They don't care what the Pope believes about it.
If the the RCC were consistent they would have to excommunicate something like 81% of the members of the Polish Catholic Church. But will they? Of course not. It is a non-issue among most people. It is a non-issue because most people believe it is a private matter to be decided among themselves, in the bedrooms of their own houses, not to be dictated by a church or religion. It has been that way since 1930 when the Anglican Church parted ways with the RCC on this matter. Now, the only ones who stand side by side with the RCC on the issue of contraception are the Muslims. I suppose both religions are in favor of quite large families.

Now, over this "non-issue" the Catholic Mafia, thugs, Taliban, etc. are trying to use their leverage to force the President of a nation to succumb to their wishes. It is "Don't you dare pass this bill on contraceptives or we will excommunicate you." This type of intimidation is illegal in our nation and most other nations. What would happen in the U.S. if the Catholic Church tried to do this to Congress. Congress would laugh in the face of the Vatican. They would put the Pope to shame. The Pope, his bishops, etc., have no right to tell the government what to do. There is a separation between church and state. Unfortunately that separation does not exist in the Philippines and the government is corrupted run by the Catholic Taliban.

 

[DHK]

What have I avoided?

What questions?

If the RCC were to be consistent it would have to excommunicate half of its membership, but they won't. This is plainly a political club used to threaten, intimidate, and give a political ultimatum to the President of the nation, as well as smear his name if he doesn't bow down and kiss the feat of a wicked and corrupt religious organization. Any reasonable thinking person can plainly see that.

You can't and won't answer this will you?

 

[lori4dogs]

"It is a non-issue because most people believe it is a private matter to be decided among themselves, in the bedrooms of their own houses, not to be dictated by a church or religion."

The majority of in the U.S. now believe that homosexuality is OK. Homosexuality is 'a private matter to be decided among themselves, in the bedrooms of their own houses, not to be dictated by a church or religion." The Church shouldn't speak out against this either, eh DHK??

 

[Steven2006]

Isn't there some type of ten page rule because people usually start regurgitating the same thoughts only in a nastier more personal tone by that point?


Maybe it is time to agree to disagree and put this one to bed.

 

[DHK]

"It is a non-issue because most people believe it is a private matter to be decided among themselves, in the bedrooms of their own houses, not to be dictated by a church or religion."

The majority of in the U.S. now believe that homosexuality is OK. Homosexuality is 'a private matter to be decided among themselves, in the bedrooms of their own houses, not to be dictated by a church or religion." The Church shouldn't speak out against this either, eh DHK??

The Church can speak out all it wants--until its blue in the face. That is the Church's duty. But the church does not make or enforce the laws.
It is against the law for the church to bribe, intimidate, threaten, or give ultimatums to the leaders of the government that they may carry out the wishes of the church. That is not Christianity. It is thuggery. It is the work of the Taliban.

 

[targus]

Targus doesn't even present arguments that make sense.
For example the issue of contraceptives is a non-issue to most people. It is nowhere near the severity of prostitution, abortion, murder, etc.

At last, DHK gives a hint of an answer in his non-answer.

I would appear then that your church would excommunicate a member for publicly promoting and supporting something that is contrary to your church's teaching - such as prostitution.

So then to DHK what makes the Catholic Church the Taliban is because they are threatening excommunication of a politician that is promoting something that is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church - namely contraception.

So all we have here is DHK trying to impose his values onto the Catholic Church.

It turns out that DHK is actually the one who is more like the Taliban ! :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Note18% of Polish Catholic clergy were killed by the Nazi's, Father Maximilian Kolbe died in a concentration camp as a substitute for a Jewish prisoner....etc. The Germans in WW2 wished to eradicate the Poles totally & used their Catholicism as an excuse to exterminate them & steal their lands.

So Mitch, you are telling me that we Poles who have undergone an attempted anialization have become the same monsters that tried to kill us all. You would make that statement & that horrible comparison against the Catholic church who assisted making Poland a Democratic nation after the Nazi's and then after the hand of communism swept the country?

 

[DHK]

It turns out that DHK is actually the one who is more like the Taliban ! :laugh: :laugh:

The RCC's (or anyone's) corruption, intimidation, threats, etc. are morally and ethically wrong. You don't have any answer for that nor will you even admit it. All you can do is call people names. That is pitiful. I will pray for you.

 

[targus]

The RCC's (or anyone's) corruption, intimidation, threats, etc. are morally and ethically wrong.

True, but that isn't the case here.

Calling the police to handle someone who is disrupting a service is not corruption, intimidation or threatening.

You don't have any answer for that nor will you even admit it. All you can do is call people names. That is pitiful.

I have given you an answer many times - the answer is that you are flat out wrong in this case.

I will pray for you.

Thanks.

 

[billwald]

>Isn't there some type of ten page rule because people usually start regurgitating the same thoughts only in a nastier more personal tone by that point?

Another rule states the ten page rule doesn't apply when the list owners agree with the nastier side.

 

[DHK]

True, but that isn't the case here.

Calling the police to handle someone who is disrupting a service is not corruption, intimidation or threatening.

That is not what is happening here, and for the life of me I don't know why you can't see that. Look again:

Celdran to Aquino: I'll go with you if you are excommunicated

Meanwhile, Celdran said he was willing to join the President if they will be excommunicated by the Catholic Church for their stand on artificial contraception.

"If ever you're going to be excommunicated, sabay tayo (I will go with you)," Celdran said in a Balitanghali report.

The issue of Aquino's possible excommunication erupted after Bishop Nereo Odchimar of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines (CBCP) told Radio Veritas that imposing the sanction of excommunication on Aquino was a possibility but not a "proximate possibility."

Celdran advised the President "to stay strong."

Despite Odchimar's statement, Aquino said he would respect a couple's decision on what birth control method to use.

On Friday, Odchimar issued a disclaimer on the CBCP website, denying that there was a threat of excommunication on the President.

"While the prevailing sentiment of a number of bishops was that of dismay and frustration... imposition of the canonical sanction has not been contemplated by the CBCP," he said.

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/202411/carlos-celdran-walks-free-after-family-posts-p6000-bail

Here is the threat of excommunication over a simple matter of contraception, and a bill that the President of the nation believes is for the betterment of the nation. The RCC holds a club, the club akin to the Taliban, over the head of the Aquino--do what I say or we will excommunicate you. His character has been defamed in public. He is being forced to go against his will. The political clout of the RCC is interfering with the policies of the government.



Why doesn't the RCC try and dictate such policies to the Congress in the U.S.A.? Because they know they can't get away with it!
There must be a separation between church and state.

But for some reason you are blinded to this fact.

 

[targus]

That is not what is happening here, and for the life of me I don't know why you can't see that. Look again:

Here is the threat of excommunication over a simple matter of contraception, and a bill that the President of the nation believes is for the betterment of the nation. The RCC holds a club, the club akin to the Taliban, over the head of the Aquino--do what I say or we will excommunicate you. His character has been defamed in public. He is being forced to go against his will. The political clout of the RCC is interfering with the policies of the government.

Why doesn't the RCC try and dictate such policies to the Congress in the U.S.A.? Because they know they can't get away with it!
There must be a separation between church and state.

But for some reason you are blinded to this fact.

You are a broken record DHK.

Ok - you don't think that contraception is a sin - the Catholic Church does.

Why do you want to deny soul liberty to the Catholic Church?

 

[DHK]

You are a broken record DHK.

Ok - you don't think that contraception is a sin - the Catholic Church does.

Why do you want to deny soul liberty to the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Bishops (and the Pope) deny soul liberty to others. If there was soul liberty other Catholics would be free to believe as they will concerning this issue which is not a doctrinal issue. It will not affect the deity of Christ or the way of salvation.

There is soul liberty among Baptists. In the same church there may be both Calvinists and non-Calvinists; people who believe in the use of contraceptives and people who don't. They have the freedom to believe as they see fit on these issues. It does not affect their salvation, nor go against the statement of faith of the church.

The RCC is denying soul liberty to the President of the Philippines and using it as a club to get their own political ways. The RCC should stay out of politics. The state needs to be separate from the church.

If you want to believe in the use of contraception, that is your choice.
Just don't try to force your choice on an entire nation. That is the denial of soul liberty and freedom of choice.

 

[targus]

The Catholic Bishops (and the Pope) deny soul liberty to others. If there was soul liberty other Catholics would be free to believe as they will concerning this issue which is not a doctrinal issue. It will not affect the deity of Christ or the way of salvation.

There is soul liberty among Baptists. In the same church there may be both Calvinists and non-Calvinists; people who believe in the use of contraceptives and people who don't. They have the freedom to believe as they see fit on these issues. It does not affect their salvation, nor go against the statement of faith of the church.

The RCC is denying soul liberty to the President of the Philippines and using it as a club to get their own political ways. The RCC should stay out of politics. The state needs to be separate from the church.

If you want to believe in the use of contraception, that is your choice.
Just don't try to force your choice on an entire nation. That is the denial of soul liberty and freedom of choice.

Really? There is liberty in your church to decide that homosexuality, prostitution, abortion, etc are not sins?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Catholic Bishops (and the Pope) deny soul liberty to others. If there was soul liberty other Catholics would be free to believe as they will concerning this issue which is not a doctrinal issue. It will not affect the deity of Christ or the way of salvation.

As I understand it catholics are allowed to believe whatever they want. If they are in disagreement with their church then no one says they won't be saved but they are prohibited from acting in certain functions. Just like a charasmatic baptist may disagree about shouting in church and running the aisles but they won't be able to do that and if they do they are asked to leave the service. How is that different?

There is soul liberty among Baptists. In the same church there may be both Calvinists and non-Calvinists; people who believe in the use of contraceptives and people who don't.

Contraceptives aren't a big issue for baptist. However if one group vehemently disagrees believe me they won't let you worship with them. J

They have the freedom to believe as they see fit on these issues. It does not affect their salvation, nor go against the statement of faith of the church

The catholics say you may not be as sanctified as you should be but they won't deny that you may still be saved.

The RCC is denying soul liberty to the President of the Philippines and using it as a club to get their own political ways. The RCC should stay out of politics. The state needs to be separate from the church.

No they are denying him communion. big difference.

If you want to believe in the use of contraception, that is your choice.
Just don't try to force your choice on an entire nation. That is the denial of soul liberty and freedom of choice.

Ok so don't try to force you anti abortion stance on america and you will be consistent.

 

[DHK]

Ok so don't try to force you anti abortion stance on america and you will be consistent.

I don't try to force an anti-abortion stance on America. I can't and wouldn't. That is not my job. Neither it is the duty of the Catholic Bishops who are trying to force their views upon a nation through means of excommunication. Excommunication is not simply denying communion. It is the forceful putting out the member of a church, the disfellowshipping of him completely. As Jesus said: you must treat as a publican and a sinner, which meant in that day that you couldn't eat with him or socialize with him in any way. He would not be allowed back in the church until complete repentance could be seen.

A few centuries ago when the RCC excommunicated a person much of the time he was burned at the stake and his ashes scattered on the river. It was never a simple matter of refusing communion. That is not what is at stake here.

These Catholic bullies are trying to enforce their Catholic agenda on an entire nation, not just their own parishes or church members, but on the entire nation of the Philippines through coercion of the President by giving him ultimatums. Do you honestly think this is ethically right and the Christian way of doing things? Is this how Jesus would have done things? Is this taught in the NT? Chapter and verse please.

 

[Nevada]

Remember Vietnam?

Remember the photographs of those Buddhist monks immolating themselves (Setting themselves on fire.) Do you know why they did so? They did it to protest the banning of their traditional parade by South Vietnam's Roman Catholic leaders.

The Kennedy Family had ties to those Vietnamese Catholic leaders. I believe they hosted the Archbishop in their home when he visited the USA.

Can you imagine the benefit this provided the North Vietnemese Communists?! They could more easily portray the Americans as culture-stomping imperialists. They could more easily portray the leaders of South Vietnam as tyrants.

We were fighting for freedom in Vietnam, yet the leaders there were religious bigots. Here in the USA, no politician would dare tell any religious group they cannot have a parade.

What arrogance the Roman Catholic leaders of South Vietnam displayed.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't try to force an anti-abortion stance on America. I can't and wouldn't. That is not my job. Neither it is the duty of the Catholic Bishops who are trying to force their views upon a nation through means of excommunication. Excommunication is not simply denying communion. It is the forceful putting out the member of a church, the disfellowshipping of him completely. As Jesus said: you must treat as a publican and a sinner, which meant in that day that you couldn't eat with him or socialize with him in any way. He would not be allowed back in the church until complete repentance could be seen.

Not entirely true in a catholic church. If you are excommunicated in a Catholic Church that doesn't prohibit you going to a service it or speaking with others of that church, however, it does keep you from communion and prevents you from teaching.

A few centuries ago when the RCC excommunicated a person much of the time he was burned at the stake and his ashes scattered on the river. It was never a simple matter of refusing communion. That is not what is at stake here.

That's only if the civil authorities convicted the person.

These Catholic bullies are trying to enforce their Catholic agenda on an entire nation, not just their own parishes or church members, but on the entire nation of the Philippines through coercion of the President by giving him ultimatums. Do you honestly think this is ethically right and the Christian way of doing things? Is this how Jesus would have done things? Is this taught in the NT? Chapter and verse please.

I will say you are consistent when you say that you won't try to sway public opinion against abortion or other societal acts of immorality. However, I believe it to be the place of the church to act as a catalyst for righteousness and should take stances against immorality. However, we don't have a problem with contraceptives. The Catholic Church obviously does and will stand against it. I don't see it any different than protestant protesting abortion.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Remember the photographs of those Buddhist monks immolating themselves (Setting themselves on fire.) Do you know why they did so? They did it to protest the banning of their traditional parade by South Vietnam's Roman Catholic leaders.

The Kennedy Family had ties to those Vietnamese Catholic leaders. I believe they hosted the Archbishop in their home when he visited the USA.

Can you imagine the benefit this provided the North Vietnemese Communists?! They could more easily portray the Americans as culture-stomping imperialists. They could more easily portray the leaders of South Vietnam as tyrants.

We were fighting for freedom in Vietnam, yet the leaders there were religious bigots. Here in the USA, no politician would dare tell any religious group they cannot have a parade.

What arrogance the Roman Catholic leaders of South Vietnam displayed.

Actually, I do remember. I also remember how protestant missionaries to Africa tried to "civilize" the natives after the European model and the disaster that caused. In fact. European nations were considered to be behind the missionary movement to "soften" the people for their rule. In Africa as well as early america we find to be christian was to be European. So what is the difference? Nothing really. How many native american things has the united states banned because of its pagan culture? Only recently have we turned back on those policies of years past regarding them.

 

[DHK]

I will say you are consistent when you say that you won't try to sway public opinion against abortion or other societal acts of immorality. However, I believe it to be the place of the church to act as a catalyst for righteousness and should take stances against immorality. However, we don't have a problem with contraceptives. The Catholic Church obviously does and will stand against it. I don't see it any different than protestant protesting abortion.

They aren't acting as a catalyst for righteousness; they are acting as goons intimidating the President of a nation by giving him an ultimatum: "Do...or I will do..." You can put whatever words you want into that formula, but it is wrong. Intimidation, ultimatums, and threats are not "the catalyst for righteousness. They are the devil's tools and originate from Hell.

If you don't pass my bill I will kill you.
If you don't pass my bill I will excommunicate you.
If you don't pass my bill I will kidnap your children, etc.

All of the above statements are the same. They are ultimatums in order to secure power over the person. This is what these Catholic Taliban in the Philippines are doing. They do not act justly. Their methods are wrong. They are the Taliban of the Philippines. "Do what I say or I will pour acid into your face."
"Do what I say or I will excommunicate you."
There is no difference between the two statements. Only the consequence of one is different than the other. They are both intimidation. Show me this form of tactic in the Bible.