Catholic Taliban?

[targus]

Stick to the OP. If you want to discuss ecclesiology start another thread. You are off topic. I will not allow you to derail the thread. I will also start deleting posts that are off topic from hereon in. My church is not the topic of the thread.

Fine - let's keep it generic.

How should any church deal with a memeber who happens to be a politician that openly and publicy promotes a law that advocates something that his church believes to be a sin?

The Catholic Church may or may not be right on contraception. That is not the issue. If the bill was on polygamy it would not matter. The content of the bill is irrelevant. The RCC is acting like thugs, like Taliban, to get their way. The President of the nation is trying to pass a bill which he believes is in the best interest of his nation. This is a democratic nation. The Catholic thugs of the RCC organization are trying to strong arm him because they don't like it.

So tell us how a church should handle a member who happens to be a politician that is openly and publicly promoting a law that advocates something that his church believes to be a sin.

The Bible teaches a separation between church and state.

Chapter and verse, please.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Fine - let's keep it generic.

How should any church deal with a memeber who happens to be a politician that openly and publicy promotes a law that advocates something that his church believes to be a sin?



So tell us how a church should handle a member who happens to be a politician that is openly and publicly promoting a law that advocates something that his church believes to be a sin.


Chapter and verse, please.

Just a note its funny how the bible all of the sudden takes on the implications and believes of the United States Constitution and a Letter writen by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association. I wonder where this quote is found in the bible?

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

 

[DHK]

Of course it is a big deal.

You said that no one in your church would ever commit or support certain acts - drinking, gambling, prostitution - because they made a covenant.

How exactly does one make a covenant with God?

God makes the covenant with us.

We can't tell God what to do in return.

Like I said - cultish.

Edited to ask - what is the consequence of breaking this covenant?

Start a thread on covenants. This post is irrelevant to the OP.
Can't stay on topic can you?

 

[targus]

Start a thread on covenants. This post is irrelevant to the OP.
Can't stay on topic can you?

This question is on topic:

How should any church deal with a memeber who happens to be a politician that openly and publicy promotes a law that advocates something that his church believes to be a sin?

Can you please answer?

 

[DHK]

Fine - let's keep it generic.
How should any church deal with a memeber who happens to be a politician that openly and publicy promotes a law that advocates something that his church believes to be a sin?

In love; not in bullying ultimatums. You can find some help in Matthew 18:15-20 also.
But you are off topic again. This has nothing to do with a local church. This has to do with a corrupt organization, one billion members wide. Some of its leaders, located in the nation of Philippines are putting political pressure on the president threatening him by force unless he conforms to their rules. That is not Christianity. Your comparisons pale to what is being done in the Philippines. They are not even relevant.

So tell us how a church should handle a member who happens to be a politician that is openly and publicly promoting a law that advocates something that his church believes to be a sin.

Give me the exact name of the local church in question and we will go from there. A corrupt organization of five billion people is not a church. The Bishops representing that organization are the ones acting like the Taliban and are threatening Aquino. You don't seem to get that. They are also the same organization that protects pedophiles but wants to excommunicate Aquino because he doesn't believe contraceptives should be absolutely necessary. Is there any consistency in this?

Chapter and verse, please.

Acts 4:19-20 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
--They would obey God first, and if necessary only God if the things of the government went against God. There was a separation.

The principle is put more clearly here:
Acts 5:27-29 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them, Saying,
28 Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
--The government has no business telling the preacher what to preach.

Conversely, the church has no business telling the government how to run the country. Did Paul command Nero? Here was Paul's command concerning government:

1 Timothy 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 13:1-3 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

According to Romans 13:2 the Catholic Bishops are only damning themselves.

 

[DHK]

This question is on topic:

How should any church deal with a memeber who happens to be a politician that openly and publicy promotes a law that advocates something that his church believes to be a sin?

Can you please answer?

Since the OP says nothing of the sort I refuse to answer your question and allow you to continue to derail the thread. Read the rules. They are at the bottom of every page. What you are doing is being a troll. The administration does not think kindly of trolls. Go back and read the OP if you need guidance.

This thread is about the Catholic Bishops in the Philippines and of their treatment of the President of that nation. Their actions are akin to that of the Taliban. That was the conclusion of the authors writing for the Financial Post. If you have a different axe to grind, start another thread.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Since the OP says nothing of the sort I refuse to answer your question and allow you to continue to derail the thread. Read the rules. They are at the bottom of every page. What you are doing is being a troll. The administration does not think kindly of trolls. Go back and read the OP if you need guidance.

This thread is about the Catholic Bishops in the Philippines and of their treatment of the President of that nation. Their actions are akin to that of the Taliban. That was the conclusion of the authors writing for the Financial Post. If you have a different axe to grind, start another thread.

The argument is that you are catagorizing the Catholics as being like the Taliban in their treatment of the Philippene officials. When your church in the same position wouldn't behave any differently. Is it then fair to catagorize Catholics as being like the taliban and not make the same critizism of your church?

 

[DHK]

The argument is that you are catagorizing the Catholics as being like the Taliban in their treatment of the Philippene officials. When your church in the same position wouldn't behave any differently. Is it then fair to catagorize Catholics as being like the taliban and not make the same critizism of your church?

First, the OP doesn't make any mention of my church so you are off topic.
Second, for you to make the statement you just made is slander and you need to be reported along with the many other such statements you made.
Third, the criticism of the Catholic Bishops in comparison with the Taliban was brought upon themselves, not by me, but by the secular media--unsaved individuals, whom I agree with.
Keep with the OP, and don't try to deflect it on me or my church. Eventually you may find yourself on the outside looking in. I will not tolerate this much more.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

First, the OP doesn't make any mention of my church so you are off topic.
Second, for you to make the statement you just made is slander and you need to be reported along with the many other such statements you made.
Third, the criticism of the Catholic Bishops in comparison with the Taliban was brought upon themselves, not by me, but by the secular media--unsaved individuals, whom I agree with.
Keep with the OP, and don't try to deflect it on me or my church. Eventually you may find yourself on the outside looking in. I will not tolerate this much more.

You go right ahead. However, if you read targus response to you you will see I am commenting on his debate that he is having with you. I didn't slander your church. I did say that it was the discussion you and Targus were having and it has very much to do with the OP. I challenge the administration to review this thread and read my post in the context of the thread to see if there was an insult. I'm going to the administration.

 

[chadman]

A corrupt organization of five billion people is not a church.

The US Census Bureau estimates the entire worlds population to be around 6.7 billion people. Man - you really do think a LOT about Catholics, LOL!

Surely your inner demon's of RCC superimposed themselves again, and you made a slight typo. That would be 74% of the world as Catholic - think of all the people you could witness to!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

FYI.....just a note that your getting closer with every post to your 30 page max then close.....just a reminder.:godisgood:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Lets take a look at the OP

September 30, 2010 – 11:16 am
The Republic of the Philippines is well known for its inability to handle hostage situations, corruption in government and catastrophic poverty. Now, a new, disturbing face of the Filipino nation has emerged.

This is a rather engaging first sentence. Certainly true on the face of it.

GMA News reports that Carlos Celdran, a well-known artist/actor/tour guide in Manila has been charged, at the urging of the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines, with the crime of ”offending religious feelings.”

This is very likely to be true. Kind of like the Jewish leadership engages world leadership when there is a case of declared anti-semitism like recently with the Head of the German national banks comments that seemed anti Jewish or when CNN coorispondant Sanchez was fired at the urging of Jewish leaders towards CNN for his comments. Or how about Alber Snyder sueing with the backing of different denominations for Westboro Baptist offense of protesting while burying his son.

Celdran has been a supporter of the controversial Reproductive Health Bill, which would encourage the use of contraception and the spreading of sex education in this staunchly Catholic country. The country’s Catholic Church, which still wields a high degree of influence among Filipino politicians, has come out strongly against the Bill.

Its funny how many evangelicals publically protest sex education in this country. Some members even homeschool their children over this issue. Sex education hasn't decreased the numbers of teen pregnancy or the spread of STD's. Funny how Evangelical preachers have close contacts with our politicians and help them make decisions that affect the country like Billy Graham or the Late pastor of Coral Ridge ministries. Hmmmm.....

Yesterday, as an act of civil disobedience, Celdran, dressed as Filipino hero Jose Rizal, stood on the altar of Manila Cathedral during Mass holding a sign that read “Damaso” – the villainous priest in Jose Rizal’s novel, “Noli Me Tangere.” Manila’s mayor, Alfredo Lim – who has been implicated as being one of those behind the Hong Kong hostage fiasco – was present at Mass and ordered Celdran forcibly removed and held in jail until the Catholic Bishops decided on charges.

The man was illegally protesting with out a permit in front of a church. People go to jail for that here as well.

Can you say Catholic Taliban?
When do we send in the troops to free Filipinos from such religious tyranny?

Such tyranny! We have more than that going on in the United States!
How about Taliban. Who kill people, cut their heads off, stone women for leaving abusive husbands who grow and sell opium for financing terrorism. Yeah, I think the comparison is an overstatement.

Disclosure Note: I have known Carlos Celdran for about four years through my many trips to the Philippines.

Nice to know the writer of the article is bias. What do you think?

 

[targus]

Sorry, DHK. But I am NOT off topic.

You are saying that the Catholics are handling this incorrectly.

To ask you then what is the correct response is completly on topic.

But of course you have no answer.

Haters can only hate.

 

[DHK]

Sorry, DHK. But I am NOT off topic.

You are saying that the Catholics are handling this incorrectly.

To ask you then what is the correct response is completly on topic.

But of course you have no answer.

Haters can only hate.

I have answered it many times; you refuse to listen.
You are off topic. Your post is filled with hate and false accusations. It soon will be brought before the administration if this continues. You seem unable to carry on a decent conversation by sticking to the OP.

 

[DHK]

Lets take a look at the OP
This is very likely to be true. Kind of like the Jewish leadership engages world leadership when there is a case of declared anti-semitism like recently with the Head of the German national banks comments that seemed anti Jewish or when CNN coorispondant Sanchez was fired at the urging of Jewish leaders towards CNN for his comments. Or how about Alber Snyder sueing with the backing of different denominations for Westboro Baptist offense of protesting while burying his son.

I doubt if it falls into any of those category.
1. It has nothing to do with race (anti-semitism).
2. It has to do with Bishops illegally trying to influence the politics of a nation, which is totally different than anything you presented.
3. The charge was "offending religious feelings," for which he got jail time, pressured by the RCC.
4. The pedophiles running around the world are just removed from parish to parish and don't even face the courts. He believes in contraceptive methods to control the spread of STD's like AIDS, (not compulsory but the education and availability thereof). The RCC threatens, gives ultimatums, castigates and will excommunicate if he passes this bill. Yet, pedophiles go free.

Its funny how many evangelicals publically protest sex education in this country. Some members even homeschool their children over this issue. Sex education hasn't decreased the numbers of teen pregnancy or the spread of STD's. Funny how Evangelical preachers have close contacts with our politicians and help them make decisions that affect the country like Billy Graham or the Late pastor of Coral Ridge ministries. Hmmmm.....

Does the bill say anything about sex education in the schools. This is another red herring by you. Statistics show that approximately 91% of the RCC disagree with the Pope's stand on contraceptives. Thus the "Catholic Taliban" in the Philippines are really being hypocritical. If they were consistent in their application of this they would excommunicate 91% of the entire RCC. There wouldn't be much left would there?

The man was illegally protesting with out a permit in front of a church. People go to jail for that here as well.

Yes they do. I don't condone his methods. But I do agree with his right to protest. I disagree with the harshness of the penalty that the RCC wanted for him. Does the penalty fit the crime. Again: Pedophiles go free.

Such tyranny! We have more than that going on in the United States!
How about Taliban. Who kill people, cut their heads off, stone women for leaving abusive husbands who grow and sell opium for financing terrorism. Yeah, I think the comparison is an overstatement.

We are speaking of methods not the actual crimes. The method of the Catholic Bishops in the Philippines is the exact method of the Taliban in Afghanistan used to get their way. "Do what I say or else!"

Nice to know the writer of the article is bias. What do you think?

I didn't see any bias; I saw a fair comparison to which you are biased.

 

[targus]

I have answered it many times; you refuse to listen.
You are off topic. Your post is filled with hate and false accusations. It soon will be brought before the administration if this continues. You seem unable to carry on a decent conversation by sticking to the OP.

Other than agreeing with you that Catholics are the Taliban is there anything that can be said that is not "off topic"?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I doubt if it falls into any of those category.
1. It has nothing to do with race (anti-semitism).

It has to do with anti catholic stance.

2. It has to do with Bishops illegally trying to influence the politics of a nation, which is totally different than anything you presented.

They did nothing illegal. Not one mention of something illegal in that article That is a red herring offered by you and an outrageous allegation with no basis.

3. The charge was "offending religious feelings," for which he got jail time, pressured by the RCC.

WE call that a hate crime in this country. Same insistance.

4. The pedophiles running around the world are just removed from parish to parish and don't even face the courts. He believes in contraceptive methods to control the spread of STD's like AIDS, (not compulsory but the education and availability thereof). The RCC threatens, gives ultimatums, castigates and will excommunicate if he passes this bill. Yet, pedophiles go free.

talk about going off topic. STD are spread by illicit sexual behavior usually between consulting adults. And you go after poor Targus! For shame on you.

Does the bill say anything about sex education in the schools. This is another red herring by you. Statistics show that approximately 91% of the RCC disagree with the Pope's stand on contraceptives.

Also irrelevant to the Article. Sex education can be the cause of increased promiscuous sex in this country. Imagine an uneducated country like the Philipenes!

Thus the "Catholic Taliban" in the Philippines are really being hypocritical.

actually it is.

If they were consistent in their application of this they would excommunicate 91% of the entire RCC

. They would if 100 % of Catholics published their views.

There wouldn't be much left would there?

Nope and maybe a good thing too.

Yes they do. I don't condone his methods.

Nor should you but that is what he was arrested for.

But I do agree with his right to protest.

He probably could have done it legally if he got the permits.

I disagree with the harshness of the penalty that the RCC wanted for him

. The Catholic Church didn't charge him it was his government.

We are speaking of methods not the actual crimes.

Funny that they are the same thing. The crimes of the taliban are their methods.

The method of the Catholic Bishops in the Philippines is the exact method of the Taliban in Afghanistan used to get their way. "Do what I say or else!"

Not even close.

I didn't see any bias; I saw a fair comparison to which you are biased.

Strange how that doesn't suprise me.

 

[DHK]

Other than agreeing with you that Catholics are the Taliban is there anything that can be said that is not "off topic"?

Go to the links provided, not only in the OP but in the first three or four pages that tell about the situation in Pakistan.
You need not be concerned about my church and attacking me. That will only get you into hot water.
Consider the actions of the RCC in Philippines: Right or wrong? Why?
Their methods? Right or wrong? Why?
This topic is about the RCC and what they are doing in the Philippines, not about DHK and what he is doing in his church. Understand?

 

[targus]

Go to the links provided, not only in the OP but in the first three or four pages that tell about the situation in Pakistan.
You need not be concerned about my church and attacking me. That will only get you into hot water.
Consider the actions of the RCC in Philippines: Right or wrong? Why?
Their methods? Right or wrong? Why?
This topic is about the RCC and what they are doing in the Philippines, not about DHK and what he is doing in his church. Understand?

I have already said that a church has the Scriptural authority to excommunicate a member that openly and publicly contradicts the belief of that church.

That the member is a politician does not negate that Scriptural authority.

Can you cite a Scripture verse that supports denying a church the authority to excommunicate a politician?

 

[DHK]

It has to do with anti catholic stance.

This is what you said (in part):
"This is very likely to be true. Kind of like the Jewish leadership engages world leadership when there is a case of declared anti-semitism like recently with the Head of the German national banks comments that seemed anti Jewish"

What has the Jews, the Germans, etc. have to do with the Catholic stance? Nothing. There is no relevance here whatsoever.

They did nothing illegal. Not one mention of something illegal in that article

The specifics were not in that article, but in other URL's that I provided on the second page and further on, which, if you had been following should have known about. Let me repeat:

Pres. Aquino said today that he was unfazed by threats from the Catholic church to excommunicate him unless he changes his position that the state should respect the choices couples will make when planning their families.

Last Tuesday, President Aquino announced that he would continue to support responsible parenthood and informed choice in family planning.

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/202328/tour-guide-carlos-celdran-detained-for-protesting-inside-church


Meanwhile, Celdran said he was willing to join the President if they will be excommunicated by the Catholic Church for their stand on artificial contraception.

"If ever you're going to be excommunicated, sabay tayo (I will go with you)," Celdran said in a Balitanghali report.

The issue of Aquino's possible excommunication erupted after Bishop Nereo Odchimar of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines (CBCP) told Radio Veritas that imposing the sanction of excommunication on Aquino was a possibility
http://www.gmanews.tv/story/202411/carlos-celdran-walks-free-after-family-posts-p6000-bail

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/202411/carlos-celdran-walks-free-after-family-posts-p6000-bail
It is obvious that there is illegal activity here. Giving ultimatum's to a President to "do as I say or else," is illegal. It is as illegal as bribery is. It is corruption on the part of the RCC. But much to Aquino's credit he stood against the RCC machinery as stated:


he was unfazed by threats from the Catholic church to excommunicate him unless he changes his position

That is a red herring offered by you and an outrageous allegation with no basis.

How can it be a red herring if it right in the article referred to?

WE call that a hate crime in this country. Same insistance.

Yes, and hate crimes do not usually end up in a jail sentence do they?

talk about going off topic. STD are spread by illicit sexual behavior usually between consulting adults. And you go after poor Targus! For shame on you.

Read why they are going to excommunicate him. It is in the article.
Read what the Rh bill says. It also is in the article.
It is not off topic that the RCC would excommunicate a President because he believes in contraception, but they won't clean up their own back yard in bringing pedophiles to trial. Where is the justice in that? The RCC is hypocritical.
Aquino gave his view on how AIDS and other STD's can be controlled. You have the right to agree or disagree (like the RCC). You do not have the right to strong-arm a person into taking your position by threats and intimidation which is exactly what the RCC is doing--Taliban tactics.

Also irrelevant to the Article. Sex education can be the cause of increased promiscuous sex in this country. Imagine an uneducated country like the Philipenes!

I don't have to imagine. I have been in nations just like it.
You have stated your opinion as fact, but it remains opinion and not fact.
Aquino is the President and not you. The country is democratic, and ought not to be politically threatened by the thugs of the RCC, who act like Taliban imposing their religious views by intimidation on the President.

The Catholic Church didn't charge him it was his government.

If you read the articles carefully it was the Catholic Bishops that "decided" what they should do with him. Their decision was jail time.

Funny that they are the same thing. The crimes of the taliban are their methods.

No they are not the same thing.
"If you don't wear a burqah you will get acid thrown in your face."
"If you don't repeal this bill you will get excommunicated."
--The formula is the same. It is bullying, intimidation, an ultimatum.
The crimes are different; the method is the same: If you don't do what I say you will face the consequences.

Not even close.

It is exactly the same. "Do what I say or else!"
Acid or excommunication. Both shame the face, only in different ways.