Catholic tradition of Limbo

[BobRyan]

Catholic Church says must own up for Inquisition

By Alessandra Galloni

VATICAN CITY, Oct 29 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Thursday said it had to take responsibility for one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic church history and not lay blame for the Inquisition on civil prosecutors.

Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee for the year 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition saying it was time to re-examine the work of the special court the church set up in 1233 to curb heresy.

Etchegaray said some scholars claimed there were several inquisitions: one in Rome, which worked directly under the Holy See's control, and others in Spain and in Portugal which were often aided by the local civil courts.

``We cannot ignore the fact that this (attempt to distinguish between inquisitions) has allowed some to make apologetic arguments and lay responsibility for what Iberian tribunals did onto civil authorities,'' he said.

``The fact that the Spanish and Portuguese crowns...had powers of intervention...on inquisitory tribunals does not change the ecclesiastical character of the institution,'' he said.

Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition to help curb heresy, but church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison and even torture heretics.

One of the Inquisition's best known victims was the astronomer Galileo, condemned for claiming the earth revolved around the sun.

The Inquisition reached its height in the 16th century to counter the Reformation. The department later became the Holy Office and its successor now is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which controls the orthodoxy of Catholic teaching.

Some of the conclusions of the international symposium, which ends on Saturday, could be included in a major document in which the church is expected to ask forgiveness for its past errors as part of celebrations for the year 2000.

The church ``cannot pass into the new millennium without urging its sons to purify themselves, through penitence, of its errors, its infidelities and its incoherences...,'' Father Georges Cottier, a top Vatican theologian and head of the theological commission for the year 2000, told the symposium.

Etchegaray said the conference could also draw on examples that scholars had been able to examine since January, when the Vatican opened secret files.

The archives also opened the infamous Index of Forbidden Books which Roman Catholics were not allowed to read or possess on pain of excommunication. Even the bible was on the blacklist.

Pope John Paul has said in several documents and speeches that the Church needs to assume responsibility for the Inquisition, which was responsible for the forced conversion of Jews as well as the torture and killing of heretics.

While there may have been mitigating historical factors for the behaviour of some Catholics, the Pope has said this did not prevent the church from expressing regret for the wrongs of its members in some periods of history.

He initiated the procedure that led to the rehabilitation of Galileo, completed in 1992.

19:01 10-29-98

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Golden Age for the RCC was the "dark ages" for mankind
QUOTE]

Excellent Point!

.[/

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Pope John Paul has said in several documents and speeches that the Church needs to assume responsibility for the Inquisition, which was responsible for the forced conversion of Jews as well as the torture and killing of heretics.

[/QB][/QUOTE]


I value this movement as far, far better than covering up and or slick and tricky excuses.

But, so called Laymen Catholics still continue to deny Inquisitions.

In such case, can we accept that there has been true and heartful penitence among the Catholics?

If they repented truly, the most of Catholics should have known about the truth of Dark Age and Inquisition, even of Crusade, then the whole Catholics would have made some siginificant penitence. There, we can have some heatful discussions.

 

[Eliyahu]

BobRyan asked :
When the RCC insisted on lovingly exterminating non-Catholics - did they do that because "there IS salvation outside the church"???

Good Question!

When RCC tortured and killed many as proclaimed "Heretics", did RCC do it believing that there is Salvation outside RCC?

Did RCC treat Baptists as the group of people possessing Salvation?

 

[BobRyan]

Notice that the "extermination" of those who oppose RC doctrine is treated like the killing and extermination of pests before taking over the land owned by those pests.

Such "loving extermination" sending the rejectors of RC doctrine speeding on their way to hell is reflected in this RC comment.

Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100
The question:
A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:

“The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”

The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:

“There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony. These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”

In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.
Catholic apologists like Catholic Digest’s Fr. Ken Ryan quoted above often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).

 

[BobRyan]

This is a story from Ecuador as told in the Berean Call out of St. Louis,
MO.9/98

March 1, 1998, during the morning service, a group of 50-100 people led by the Catholic nuns showed up on the church property to warn us to stop preaching the gospel and to leave the town of Quinche. It was a very scary time because of the yelling and the threats.

Ecuador does have freedom of religion. Monday afternoon Kevin took a letter
from our lawyer to the head of the police in Quinche. The police chief refused to accept the letter. Kevin took it to the policemen on duty who stamped it and noted when they received it. He then went to our church property to meet with the pastor and the leaders of the church.

A number of belivers were there, as the Catholic priest had been speaking to the town all afternoon over the sound system and riling tup the community. At
about 6:00pm, a sympathizer came to warn that a mob oF 1000 had formed at the
Catholic church and was headed their way in a violent state. Kevin go a truck load of people away just as the mob was getting very close. The police were leading, followed by the priest and nuns. The belivers observed all that was taking place from a road further up the hill.

The mob then made a total wreck of everything. The cement block building is still standing, but everything that had been inside was burned. The priest just stood watching everything, urging the people on. The nuns were seen tearing pages out of the Bible and throwing them into the fire (even the Catholic Bible we had). The believers were very discouraged. To us, it was just like a Martin Luther or John Huss film. We had heard of persecution but had never experienced anything like it, nor did we expect to.

Since that time, the believers are very united; some have already become stronger in their faith. We are confident of God's control. We know that we are going to see fruit from this experience and that God has a specific purpose for this. We are looking forward to seeing it!

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Catholic Church says must own up for Inquisition

By Alessandra Galloni

Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition to help curb heresy, but church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison and even torture heretics.

.

[/b]

This is the way how RCC persecuted the true believers thru Civil authorities where the RCC dominates 99% of the population, while they look holy.

Even World War II were initiated by those devout Roman Catholic leaders like Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, Franco.

IMO, WWII was just a Proxy War caused by RCC.

If we look at Hitler's henchmen almost all of them are devout Roman Catholic. This fact asks us the question: What kind of doctrines are taught by RC?
As we see Limbo theory, all the human made theories don't have the power of Reproof, Correction, Instruction as Bible has.

2 Tim 3:15-16
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (Rev 18:4)

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Fourth Lateran Council, for example, the ecumenical council that dogmatized

”Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that
whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the
supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; 1988),

[/QB][/QUOTE]


This is how The Foundation of Roman Catholic churches was established, i.e. by confiscating the properties of the true believers after condemning them as Heretics!

It is an irony that such foundation works for the benevolence and charity.

All the preserved record of Catholic declarations, Council Anouncements prove this fact. Limbo was a part of those theories held by this group of people.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok now the point of bringing up the confessions "From within the RCC" of her own deeds during the dark ages - is not merely to say "see the RCC was bad". It is to point out the truth of God's Word in Rev 12 and Dan 7 that 1260 years of persecution of the saints would follow after the time of Christ.

It is show that God predicted the long dark night of the World - the "Dark ages" - the "Golden age of the RCC"!!

It is to serve as a warning from pursuing those same practices of intolerance today!

It is to show that the "Falling away" the "Apostacy" predicted in 2Thess 2:1-5 did occur!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Bob,
Do you have any other sources than Medieval sourcebook, about the decrees, Bulls, Declaration from the Council meetings of Roman Catholic?

I wonder why the Holy Roman Catholics do not publicly reveal their previous inerrant, holy, Bulls anounced by Infallible Popes.

If they are so holy and incorrect, why do they not publish them ?

It will be very much interesting if we read all the Bulls and Decrees by Pontiffs

 

[BobRyan]

Actually I think you can get all the bulls you want here

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03052b.htm

 

[Eliyahu]

Thanks to Bob !

What I want to have was the Bulls which declared the Heretics and instructed to treat those Heretics.
I think I need some endeavor to organize them.

 

[Eliyahu]

Actually those records are not the whole Bulls without abbreviations, without omissions which reveal the true aspects of Holy Roman Catholic

 

[Eliyahu]

Fourth Lateran Council:
Canons 78, 79: Jews and Moslems shall wear a special dress to enable them to be distinguished from Christians. Christian princes must take measures to prevent blasphemies against Jesus Christ.

Nazis may have learned from this Bull.

But there must be the remaining part of the Bulls against the true believers