Catholicity key to Church Unity

[Logan]

Greetings Brother Tony:

I said the Roman Catholic Church was not founded until some 250 years following Paul's writings.

This is simply not true. The facts say otherwise. Historical evidence we have show proof of the Bishop of Rome being consulted to solve disputes as early as 90 A.D. Many other practices and doctrinal beliefs the Church holds today are recorded much earlier than 250 A.D. So why do you say it was not founded until 250 A.D.?

Again, I repeat the term catholic and certainly the Roman Catholic Church are not even mentioned in the Scripture. Strange for a church that was supposed to be the only church founded by Jesus and supposedly led originally by Peter.

And the JW's and Mormons I talk with say the same thing about the the word "Trinity." Does that mean we throw it out the window? I say not, it is a Scriptually sound belief.

Just so you kwow, I am not impressed by what the early "church fathers" say, although it gives us historical information, their words are certainly not Scripture. If I thought the Bible taught that the church is the RCC then I would be a part of that church.

I dont expect you to be since their writings in regards to Protestant/Catholic differences are distinctivly Catholic. I agree they are not inspired writings to be held equal with Scripture, but when you have wrtings by a man (Polycarp) who was a disciple of the Apostle John, how can one say he's not interested in or not give any merit to what this man wrote?

 

[Bro Tony]

Logan,

Thanks for your response. I did not state that I was not interested in the writings of early Christians. I said their writings give us a historical perspective, but there are those who hold their writings to the level of Scripture, I don't.

That there were church leaders in Rome in the first and second century I do not dispute. There were church leaders in many other cities also. That does not equate to the RCC being established as the one true church.

Also I want to make sure I am not misunderstood. I did not say the RCC was established in 250AD, I said it was not established until approximately 250 years after Paul's writings. Which would put its birth approximately 315AD.

And while the JW's and the mormons would dispute the Trinity because the word is not in the Bible, both you and I know it is clearly taught in Scripture. If the Church of Rome is the Church, being established before the canon of Scripture was closed, certainly we would have reference to it in the Scripture. We certainly have the Church at Jerusalem mentioned of which James was the leader, not Peter.

Bro Tony

 

[Kathryn]

Brother Tony:

You keep stating that the Holy Scriptures says that there is "one bread". You state that the Apostle Paul said this. I am going to have to have you help my ignorance and please give me the Scripture reference so I can study this and give you a response. Thanks for the help.

1 Corinthians chapter 10

Specifically:

“Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” Since there is one bread , we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.1 Corinthians 10:16-17

 

[Eric B]

While I -somewhat- respect the notion of an 'invisible' Church, I must say I disagree with that notion. People who promote this very-often have the kind of 'rugged individualism' that Protestantism is famous for, and why it is divided so-many ways. The Church that Jesus established is 'one' 'holy' 'catholic' and 'apostolic'. How can Protestantism claim to be 'one'?

The third mark of the Church, being 'Catholic' means exactly what St Vincent said of it...at all times, in all places.(of course, in my opinion, that would mean that certain Roman doctrines would have to be abandoned...for example the controversy around 'filoque', pergatory, etc.) THAT is where most Protestants fall-flat...their unique doctrines have no-warrant in the teachings of the early Church, and frankly, don't hold-up to Scripture either. And also, of course, they-then are not Apostolic, either in what they hold, nor in their Orders. I still believe 'Catholicity' is the key to Church unity, a unity that Jesus prayed for, recorded in John's gospel.

Because they are one in the essentials of the faith, and "invisible church' is not necessarily talking about "just me and Jesus", though some may act like that. It means that though the Church has divided into different organizations among lines of doctrinal difference and practice, still, those who believe the basic gospel of salvation and the truths about God are apart of the BODY of Christ, which is a spiritual institution. The various denominations you see are manmade, and you are saying "this ecclesiatical govt. or corporation is the 'one true body', and you must join it to be aopart of Christ. Once again, THAT is what was manmade, beginning the fourth century. Then when the Reformers broke loose, at first they wanted to stay in that body and reform it from within, but with the opposition they faced, they wound up organizing their own governments, and then later people who came out of them formed their own corporations. Now everyone with some new doctrine forms their own tax exempt group in a particular state, with them as the leaders, etc. And this is why the "25,000 sects" the Catholics speak of.
But this does not mean the answer is to return to the first human organization, though it has added doctrines as you even admitted. So there is an invisible body that spans all of these manmade organizations, so long as the individuals in them believe the truth of Christ.

I would see 'holiness' as something all Christians can attain, and would also see it as something the Lord REQUIRES. Ray, you mention 'faith alone' but I don't see that phrase in Scripture, except where James says we are NOT saved by "faith alone". And while I would argue that we are saved by GRACE ALONE, AND THROUGH FAITH...doesn't it all depend on how one defines 'faith'? Isn't faith trust and love AND OBEDIENCE? Check the context of Jesus' remarks in John 15. Doesn't He tell us there that we will remain/abide in Him if we OBEY?

Of course, most of us emphasize works of holiness as being necessary for the Christian life. But you must be carefulin that, because where do you draw the line between being saved or lost when a Christian sins? Ultimately, it has to be grace through faith, "not of works", and you can't redefine faith in terms of works to make this verse contradict itself. Yes, James teaches us that faith is to be demonstrated by works (works are fruits), but the faith is the starting point, not the works. The RCC makes it sound like the other way around, or at least emphasizes works moreso than regeneration, which is what produces the works. Then many of the works the Church commands are not biblical, such as Hail Mary's, Novenas, Rosaries, confession as a particular act in a booth with a priest rather than an attitude of admitting one's faults to another, and last rites as the final mandate to be saved. This type of "penance", seems to be emphasized more than repentance (turning away from sin), and people get into a routine of just sinning, doing whatever you feel like; you can be a mobster and rub people out, etc. and then just doing these acts and then you might make it to Heaven or at least spend less time in purgatory. (Then, the RCC leadership winders why American RC's, for instance, are so "wayward" as they call them!) These are what do contradict "grace alone through faith", and are why the Baptists and others reject RCC doctrine and practice.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Why can not Catholics to own up to the truth of Scripture in Matthew 16:18, which says, 'Thou art {Petros-Peter} and on this Rock-Petra-Christ I will build My church.'

With Roman Catholics the highway marker always points back to the Magisterium and the Vatican, rather than to God's uncompromising words of truth. When truth becomes too virile and forceful, they always hurry back to the arms of the pope even in spite of their humanity and fallibility. The bottom line is do we want to trust our never dying souls, to a religious cleric or to the One who brought the world and universe into being, by the mighty word of His power. Non-Catholics trust in the last option.

There is no record in Scripture or even in Catholicism's popes ex cathedras that Christians will be judged and awarded Heaven by standing before these flesh and blood, men.

But, the Scripture does say that every knee will bow before the Lord and that He will judge every human being that has ever lived. [John 5:22-23] Jesus said while on earth that ' . . . the Father judges no man/woman, but has committed all judgment to the Son. That all men/women should honor the Son.'

The Gospel and our lives should be all about recognizing and worshipping the Son of God our Savior, and not the adoration of a pompous pope who will one day die like everyone of us who will return to dust.

Peter, their alleged first pope called himself ' . . . a servant {dulos} and an apostle of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Peter did not allow any other titles to be written in his forehead, other than the one that God spoke of in II Peter 1:1. The Greek word, 'dulos' means a servant, a person who is in subjection or subservient to Jesus Christ, or a bondman. A bondman is a 13th century word meaning a slave or serf and without doubt this word goes back to Jesus times on the earth also. No where in the Bible is Peter elevated and robed in scarlet and gold and paraded through the streets of Jerusalem or anywhere in Palestine. Peter in his hour of death does not claim to be the leader of the first and only church for all time. He pointed to Christ as being the 'tasted' One Who is the Lord, the gracious One. Peter proclaims Jesus as being 'a living Stone,' and the 'chief corner Stone' [I Peter 2:4 & 6] and that we must believe in Him, not a humanly elevated new church, that would be shaped in Rome.

The church {ekklesea-the called out ones} are those who trust in the Rock of salvation and not in any system of religious, religion. [Isaiah 8:14 & 28:16]

Even the Prophet Isaiah in being a servant of God in building His spiritual, Jewish assembly-meaning gathering or congregation, said,

'Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold I lay in Zion for a Foundation, as Stone, a tried Stone, a precious Corner Stone, a sure Foundation; he who believes shall not make haste.' Haste means, 'will never be disappointed.'

Notice also in the N.T. the Apostle Paul's words in I Corinthians 3:11. Christ is our only Foundation on which to build our Christian lives. Jesus is the Petra-the Rock of our eternal hope.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Kathryn]

Eric:

It means that though the Church has divided into different organizations among lines of doctrinal difference and practice, still, those who believe the basic gospel of salvation and the truths about God are apart of the BODY of Christ, which is a spiritual institution.

Scripture is much more specific about how we are one, and that God makes this possible. This is why Baptism and Holy Communion are from God and not human works. In baptism we die with Christ and rise with Christ being born again, as Jesus showed us with His own baptism. In Holy Communion we, with each other, and the entire body of Christ share in the blood and the body of Christ. This is impossible if it was only a human work, but it's not, it's a sacrament, given to us and made possible by God, and taught in Holy Scripture.

“Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” Since there is one bread , we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17

 

[Ray Berrian]

Are there any works or merits found in Romans 5:1?

'Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.' [Romans 5:1]

Jesus said, 'Let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever is more than these comes from evil.' [Matt. 5:37]

Are there any works or merits in Romans 5:1? Yes or no?

 

[Kathryn]

No. Baptism and Holy Communion are not human works. They are the work of God. We can not die with Christ and rise with Him, without Him doing it for us, and making us children of God, born again. There is only one Baptism according to the word of God. In the Eucharist we can not do, as a human work, what St. Paul says happens in the Eucharist. There is only one bread.

“Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” Since there is one bread , we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17

 

[Eric B]

Scripture is much more specific about how we are one, and that God makes this possible. This is why Baptism and Holy Communion are from God and not human works. In baptism we die with Christ and rise with Christ being born again, as Jesus showed us with His own baptism. In Holy Communion we, with each other, and the entire body of Christ share in the blood and the body of Christ. This is impossible if it was only a human work, but it's not, it's a sacrament, given to us and made possible by God, and taught in Holy Scripture.

Still, the RCC changes even these ordinances into something they were not, according to the scriptures. They were outward signs of our unity in Christ, not means of salvation ("grace" ) or the mystical significance they attached to them. (Note, there is a difference between "mystical" and spiritual).

 

[Ray Berrian]

Kathryn,

I agree with your entire last post except where you said, 'In baptism we die with Christ and rise with Christ being born again, as Jesus showed us with His own baptism.'

Ray is saying, 'I believe that baptism is the sign of the covenant, but have not yet come to believe in baptismal regeneration. I especially, disagree with your last phrase. Jesus never sinned and, therefore, did not need to be 'allegedly cleansed from sin' through water baptism. Neither did our Lord need to be 'born again' {regenerated}.

Jesus baptism took place only to formally bless His official, public ministry to those who heard Him. His baptism was His entrance into His ministry toward sinners.

The confirmation of the Holy Spirit and the Father is noted in all four Gospels. Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22 & John 1:32.

I think all who were there heard the voice of God the Father's voice from Heaven. Some one might disagree with this.

 

[Kathryn]

The spiritual is real for those who are Christian. Nothing about only a outward signs of unity. That would be meaningless. The unity is real, physical and spiritual. In baptism we really die with Christ and rise with Christ. In the Eucharist we really share in the one bread, with everyone else in the body of Christ, in His sacrifice. If it just represented unity, there would not really be one bread or one body.

No where does the Bible say anything about an outward sign. We really are born again, we really do share in the body and blood of His sacrifice. We really are one with each and everyone else in the body of Christ when we eat the one bread.

“Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” Since there is one bread , we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17

Baptism and the Eucharist are both outward signs of a spiritual reality. Otherwise we have not been born again, and we don't share in the body of Christ as the word of God says we do.

 

[Kathryn]

Ray: Jesus showed us that we must die with him to rise with Him. He told John to go ahead with the baptism to fulfill what had to be done. He was declared the Son of God by the Father and witnessed by the Holy Spirit. He was born again of water and the spirit. This is why Jesus commanded we must be baptised in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit when we become a child of God and enter into the covenant. Jesus had no sin, but showed us what we had to do to be saved. We have to join Him in the one baptism. There is only one Baptism, we die with Christ and rise with Christ. Those who had been baptised by John had to be baptised in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ray Berrian]

If we are not careful we can make penance, Easter Communion, church going, doing good works, even 'loving our neighbor as ourselves' receiving the Eucharist, confession of mortal sins to a priest, and Extreme Unction as a factors in bringing about our eternal salvation, which God says is given to us only by faith. [John 3:16 & Romans 5:1]

Romanism speaks out of each corner of the mouth. Yes, we are saved by Christ's grace through faith, but on the other hand, we are a religion of 'human works' as duly noted above, as some examples. Your friends cannot have it both ways. You have selected the faith plus works equals salvation and Heaven.

 

[Kathryn]

Ray:
Yes, or no, do you deny that baptism saves you? The word of God tells us this is so. We are saved by Grace through faith. There is only one baptism, Jesus Christ showed us that, and Holy Scripture teaches that. We are saved by Grace through faith. God does the work. Baptism is a outward sign of a spiritual reality. Only he can make us a born again, child of God, who has died with Christ and risen with Christ in baptism. We have to believe in the whole gospel not just bits and pieces.


1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you --not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Kathryn]

There is a dilemma because many Protestants want baptism and communion to be only human works, only outward signs representing something, and Holy Scripture teaches there is one baptism where we die with Christ and rise with Christ and one bread that the whole body of Christ share in. This takes God. All things are possible for God. Only God can make an outward sign a spiritual reality. This is the reality of the unity that the Holy Scripture speaks of, made possible by Jesus Christ.

 

[Living4Him]

AMEN Kathryn!!!

 

[Bro Tony]

Kathryn,

Thank you for the Scripture reference and while I was not sure what you were getting at, now after reading the last few posts it is becoming clear. I certainly have no problem with the one bread as Paul states it here. It is all found in Christ and as believers break the bread and share His cup Paul tells us we proclaim His death until He returns. As believers we are one body, we have the one bread and drink from the one cup. Our difference clearly is the authority you choose to give the RCC and its faulty understanding of trans-substantiation. I certainly don't believe when the priest prays over the host that it becomes the body of Christ.

I am not Ray, but I will answer about whether I believe baptism saves. The baptism you are talking about does not save. The one baptism that Paul was referring to in Ephesians is not even water baptism, but the baptism of Christ through the Spirit. John refer to this genuine baptism when he said, "I indeed baptize you with water, but there is one who comes after me whose sandles I am not even worhty to untie, who will baptized you with Spirit and fire." This is the genuine one baptism spoken of by Paul and there is no water involved. Water baptism is an outward sign of what has already taken place in the life of the believer. It is for believers, not for entrance into the Kingdom of God. If one is lost when they get baptized, afterward they are still lost, but just a little more wet. If water baptism was necessary for salvation, then the RCC would have a problem there also, for they refuse to administer it biblically, sprinkling don't count.

I know you will not agree with what I have said,that is why you are RCC and I am an Evangelical Christian. These things have been debated for centuries and people have given theirs lives for these truths. I will not be found guilty of denying biblical truth for any ecclesiastical body.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

PS

As you can see, whether you agree or not. My view of biblical baptism and communion has nothing to do with human works. It places all the emphasis where it belongs--on the Lord.

Bro Tony

 

[Kathryn]

Brother Tony: In order to preserve your view, you have more than one baptism going here. This is the point of the unity. There is only one Baptism, the one the Lord gave us. Those who were baptized previously by John had to be baptzed into Jesus Christ's baptism. Go to all nations baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is quite clear in the Great Commission. In baptism one must be born of water and the Spirit. We die with Christ and rise with Christ. There isn't two baptisms. Water baptism is an outward sign of a spiritual reality.

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

1 Peter 3:19
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

1 Peter 3:20
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water .

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


Acts 19:3
And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."

Acts 19:4
Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

Acts 19:5
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Thank you for the Scripture reference and while I was not sure what you were getting at, now after reading the last few posts it is becoming clear. I certainly have no problem with the one bread as Paul states it here. It is all found in Christ and as believers break the bread and share His cup Paul tells us we proclaim His death until He returns. As believers we are one body, we have the one bread and drink from the one cup. Our difference clearly is the authority you choose to give the RCC and its faulty understanding of trans-substantiation. I certainly don't believe when the priest prays over the host that it becomes the body of Christ.

You seem to believe then that Communion is a sacrament and not a human work, an outward sign of a spiritual reality. It is an awesome thought that there is only one bread and how it is possible to share anything, much less the Lord’s sacrifice, with the entire body of Christ. Yes, I believe Jesus Christ is this Bread of Life.

“Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” Since there is one bread , we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread . 1 Corinthians 10:16-17

And yes, I believe I really share in the body of Christ, in the once and for all sacrifice with everyone who is a member of the body. The Eucharist is not just a symbol of Christ. If it was, it would just be a human work, and this would deny that there really is one bread. I am not claiming anything more than what the word of God reveals in Holy Scripture.

[ April 06, 2004, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Kathryn]

The Bible tells us that the unity Jesus Christ prayed for is a reality. It’s God’s will and should be ours that we be one with each other and with Him. “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” All have not formally joined this unity, although any members of the body of Christ share in it, whether they realize it or not. The Bible tells us there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one bread, one body. We share in the one bread, each with the other members, in the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. These outward signs of a spiritual reality are the work of God and not man. In the one baptism that Holy Scripture teaches, man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit. We die with Christ and rise with Christ. We receive the Holy Spirit, and are made a child of God. The Eucharist is the key to unity.

Jesus rebuked the Apostles and called them foolish for not remembering all He commanded them. Because they failed to have this unity, they were blinded to recognizing Him even though they were Christians, loved Him, and were His followers. It was through the Eucharist that Jesus Christ opened their eyes, and they recognized Him and remembered.

Luke 24:30
When He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them.

Luke 24:31
Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from their sight.