Catholicity key to Church Unity

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Jude:

You said, "If the office of Bishop is a later development of human invention..." and by doing so, put words in my mouth. Either one believes that the Holy Spirit guided this 'development' or not. I choose to believe so.

Sorry, the Holy Spirit guiding this development simply never occurred to me. I had only heard the RCC doctrine of petrine establishment of apostolic succession. I see the Anglican view is quite different.

 

[Jude]

Mt.28.20b And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Not everything Christians believe is in the Bible. The Nicene, Apostles, Athanasian Creeds, even the formation of the NT Canon came AFTER 100 A.D.

 

[John Gilmore]

But Sola Scriptura would argue that the Creeds and canon derive directly from scripture and are not a development guided by the Holy Spirit. For example, the filioque, although theologically correct, has split the Eastern and Western churches because of the manner in which it was added. Similarly, the Apocrypha has split Roman Catholic and Protestants churches due to the manner in which the canon was fixed.

I think apostolic succession has split Protestant churches because some churches have taught that it is required and some have taught that it is not permitted.

[ April 25, 2004, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
But Sola Scriptura would argue that the Creeds and canon derive directly from scripture and are not a development guided by the Holy Spirit.

Not guided by the Holy Spirit???

Similarly, the Apocrypha has split Roman Catholic and Protestants churches due to the manner in which the canon was fixed.

The so-called Apocrypha WAS part of the NT canon, until the Reformers excluded it, largely because it contained support for certain RC doctrines. It is in the Orthodox, RC, and Anglican churches a part of Sacred Scripture.

I think apostolic succession has split Protestant churches because some churches have taught that it is required and some have taught that it is not permitted.

It was required for the first 1500 years of the Church's existence. The Reformers obviously ignored this.

 

[John Gilmore]

Jude,

Even before the Reformation, the Creeds and canon were not truly fixed. Various books were not considered to be at the same level as other books in the canon. And the East and West could not agree about the filioque and other changes that the West had made to the Creeds. Nor could they agreed on meaning of Apostolic Succession.

I don't see the Holy Spirit guiding the development of new doctrines. I see men either being faithful to scripture or inventing things that go beyond scripture.

 

[dawna marie]

here is a link on what the cathoilc church belives from their offical web site

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

 

[dawna marie]

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cevang/documents/rc_con_cevang_doc_19971001_priests_en.html


here is another thing catholic belive right from the pastroral guide from the offical web site of the catolic church from the vatican

as you read it you wil see where it says this

"All priests should fix their gaze on Mary, Mother of Christ and Mother of the Church, who from the time the Incarnation of the Son of God has become an exemplary and necessary foundation of their being and their life."

 

[D28guy]

Jude,

I'm about 16 pages behind, so this has probably been brought up, but here goes...

You quoted...

"Jesus prayed,
John 17.20-23 NIV “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

And then said...

"The unity that Jesus is praying for here has not been the experience of the Church since 1054."

The unity Jesus prayed for took place immedietly, and has been in place uninterrupded right up untill this very second. Jesus has one church, and has only had one church for 2000 years now, and He has only one church today...all who are indwelt by the Spirit of God, and sealed into Christs body.

All of Christs people, those who are born again of the Spirit of God, are one. Christ prayed it, so of course it is so.

It has nothing to do with everyone believing identically regarding everything, since God told us in advance that there would be differences, and he admonished us to "let you brother be fully convinced in his own mind", because "who are you to judge your brother".

The oneness is regarding the truth that we are all brothers and sisters in one body...the body of Christ...and that we should love each other accordingly.

We dont always do that, but that has no effect on Christs prayer.

Christ's prayer was answered by His Father, and praise the Lord for that!

Blessings,

Mike

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by dawna marie:
here is a link on what the cathoilc church belives from their offical web site

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

Dawna Marie...I would hope that you understand the term 'Catholicity' is not limited to the ROMAN Catholic church...or, that in this unity, the ROMAN church doesn't have repenting to do. It does...

 

[dawna marie]

i geuss i got off the subject sorry