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Catholics, and the Eucharist.

Tom Butler

New Member
Originally Posted by annsni
My guess is that originally, there was not a ban on Catholics and since Lori was here so long, it's probably that she was grandfathered in. IMO, Joshua was deceptive in his application and came here to convert us all. That was against the rules. Of course I could be wrong (it's happened once or twice if I remember correctly - LOL).


All quite true, especially that which I bolded.
As for Lori, I am not quite sure. Perhaps the administration has started to be a bit more consistent in its application of the rules concerning Catholics.

Thank you, DHK. I checked the rules and the FAQ and found nothing about Catholics being prohibited. That's why I asked in the first place. Any light you can shed on Lori's banning, particularly what rule she violated, would be helpful, I think.
 

Zenas

Active Member
Roman Catholicism, on the other hand, places a high value on human reason. Its history shows the consequence of that trust. For example, in the Latin Middle Ages, the 13th century, the theologian-philosopher, Thomas Aquinas, joined "Christianity" with the philosophy of Aristotle. From that period til now, the Latins have never wavered in their respect for human wisdom; and it has radically altered the theology, mysteries and institutions of the Christian religion.
On the whole I would agree. The Latins do have great respect for human reason and that is probably why all the pieces of their theology fit together so neatly. As for the Eucharist, Thinkingstuff has alluded to their separation of the accidents (physical) and the substance (spiritual). However, not even the RCC would claim to understand what happens, much less how it happens, as evidenced by Section 1333 of the Cathecism.
1333 At the heart of the Eucharistic celebration are the bread and wine that, by the words of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit, become Christ's Body and Blood. Faithful to the Lord's command the Church continues to do, in his memory and until his glorious return, what he did on the eve of his Passion: "He took bread. . . ." "He took the cup filled with wine. . . ." The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ; they continue also to signify the goodness of creation. Thus in the Offertory we give thanks to the Creator for bread and wine,152 fruit of the "work of human hands," but above all as "fruit of the earth" and "of the vine" - gifts of the Creator. The Church sees in the gesture of the king-priest Melchizedek, who "brought out bread and wine," a prefiguring of her own offering.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Christ's Apostles and His Disciples were like first graders and thus Christ had to explain things to them using terms and illustrations that made sense to them...usually in parable form. There's plenty of examples were Christ had to follow up on a teaching, or times when the Disciples themselves inquired further on a teaching and in those cases Christ would try and explain it in another way.

St. John's Bread of Life disclosure we see in Chapter 6 is no different...Christ was in the Temple, not some mountain side dirt road...The Apostles/Disciples didn't UNDERSTAND His teaching...said it was a HARD teaching...why? Because of the language Christ was using...Christ was blunt and straightforward...Christ didn't try to explain His teaching any other way.
The expression "hard teaching" refers to the fact that it is "hard" to accept or hard to follow, not to understand. It would take sacrifice to follow Christ. It would be hard.

John 6:60-61 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
--It was offensive; it was hard; it would take sacrifice.
Christ was often called "Rabi", which means TEACHER...How many teachers you know would let people walk away from class based on a misunderstanding?
There was no misunderstanding. They knew exactly what he meant. They were offended, and thus walked away. They didn't want to make the sacrifice that Christ was calling for. It takes sacrifice to be a follower of Christ.
The teacher would do whatever it took to better explain himself to his students...This wasn't the case in John 6...There was no other way Christ could explain His teaching...sadly many left Him that day and followed Him no more...
Sadly you just called Jesus "stupid."
"There was no other way that Christ could explain His teaching."
Amazing isn't it! The one who gives man words to speak, and a tongue to speak them can't find the words to speak? What kind of accusation is this that you bring against the Creator?
--The fact is that they all understood him, and because they plainly understood him they were offended and would not follow his teaching or Him any longer.
It was a teaching they couldn't and wouldn't accept...and it continues to this very day.
They could accept it; but they won't. That goes for you as well. You could but you won't.

Julian Huxley once said concerning evolution: "Credible? No, I don't believe in evolution because it is credible; rather because belief in God is too incredible."
He could but would not believe in God. He would rather believe in some alternative rather than to submit himself to the Creator. It is much easier to believe in an idol.
 

Grace&Truth

New Member
Christ's Apostles and His Disciples were like first graders and thus Christ had to explain things to them using terms and illustrations that made sense to them...usually in parable form. There's plenty of examples were Christ had to follow up on a teaching, or times when the Disciples themselves inquired further on a teaching and in those cases Christ would try and explain it in another way.

St. John's Bread of Life disclosure we see in Chapter 6 is no different...Christ was in the Temple, not some mountain side dirt road...The Apostles/Disciples didn't UNDERSTAND His teaching...said it was a HARD teaching...why? Because of the language Christ was using...Christ was blunt and straightforward...Christ didn't try to explain His teaching any other way.

Christ was often called "Rabi", which means TEACHER...How many teachers you know would let people walk away from class based on a misunderstanding? The teacher would do whatever it took to better explain himself to his students...This wasn't the case in John 6...There was no other way Christ could explain His teaching...sadly many left Him that day and followed Him no more...

It was a teaching they couldn't and wouldn't accept...and it continues to this very day.

Actually, Christ was in the synagogue, not in the Temple. Also if you read this whole chapter you will see that it has nothing to do with "The Lord's Supper""Commuion" or what RC's call the "Eucharist". Notice in this chapter Jesus is referred to as "the Bread" not "the bread becomes Jesus". Jesus is likening Himself as spiritual bread because many of those who followed Him only did so because of the miracle of feeding the 5,000. We don't literally eat Jesus we are to believe on Him.

John 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
...Jesus is referred to as "the Bread" not "the bread becomes Jesus". Jesus is likening Himself as spiritual bread because many of those who followed Him only did so because of the miracle of feeding the 5,000. We don't literally eat Jesus we are to believe on Him.
and that's simply your interpretation of John 6...it's NOT the consensus of the Church over a 2,000 year period...from the beginning...yours is a modern interpretation, because your protestant denomination is a modern one...

They took Christ at His Word, so why shouldn't we? If the Eucharist is merely a memorial and merely bread and wine, as your denomination preaches, then why does the Holy Apostle Paul warn us that:

"For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep." (1 Corinthians 11:29-30).​

Would ordinary bread and wine make people sick or even cause them to die?

It is very clear from the writings of the early Church that, if the Church got it "wrong", they did so at a very early stage! The writings of St. Ignatius makes this very clear:

"Do not err, my brethren,: if anyone follow a schismatic he will not inherit the kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care then to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons." (Letter to the Philadephians 3, 3-4) written around 110 AD.​
And in his letter to the Smyrnaeans:

"From Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His loving-kindness raised from the dead. And so, those who question the gift of God perish in their contentiousness. It would be better for them to have love, so as to share in the resurrection. It is proper, therefore, to avoid associating with such people and not to speak about them either in private or in public, but to study the Prophets attentively and, especially, the Gospel, in which the Passion is revealed to us and the Resurrection shown in its fulfillment. Shun division as the beginning of evil."​

And St. Justin Martyr, writing in 150 AD tells us:

"We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins annd for regeneration, and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread nor as common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our flesh and blood is nourished, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnated Jesus."​
Keep in mind too G&P, there was NO "Roman Catholic Church" as we know it today, during 110AD and 150AD...there was nothing but the CHURCH...the One, Holy, Apostolic Church centered around Five (5) Patriarchates of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria...therefore, this is no invention of the Roman Catholic Church...the Roman Catholic Church may have taken the doctrine and developed it more so than what it should've been, but the fact remains...the bread and actual wine, has always been viewed as the Body and Blood of Christ.

Therefore, from the first followers of our Lord Himself, through the Apostle Paul and the first leaders of the post Apostolic early Church, the Real Presence of our Lord can be seen to be an accepted teaching from the very beginning. It was only after the so-called "reformation" that any different teaching even existed! Martin Luther himself believed firmly in the Real Presence. It was not until the German Zwingli in 1519 that the idea that the Eucharist was merely a "memorial" appeared!
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
and that's simply your interpretation of John 6...it's NOT the consensus of the Church over a 2,000 year period...from the beginning...yours is a modern interpretation, because your protestant denomination is a modern one...

They took Christ at His Word, so why shouldn't we? If the Eucharist is merely a memorial and merely bread and wine, as your denomination preaches, then why does the Holy Apostle Paul warn us that:

"For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep." (1 Corinthians 11:29-30).​

Would ordinary bread and wine make people sick or even cause them to die?

It is very clear from the writings of the early Church that, if the Church got it "wrong", they did so at a very early stage! The writings of St. Ignatius makes this very clear:

"Do not err, my brethren,: if anyone follow a schismatic he will not inherit the kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care then to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons." (Letter to the Philadephians 3, 3-4) written around 110 AD.​
And in his letter to the Smyrnaeans:

"From Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His loving-kindness raised from the dead. And so, those who question the gift of God perish in their contentiousness. It would be better for them to have love, so as to share in the resurrection. It is proper, therefore, to avoid associating with such people and not to speak about them either in private or in public, but to study the Prophets attentively and, especially, the Gospel, in which the Passion is revealed to us and the Resurrection shown in its fulfillment. Shun division as the beginning of evil."​

And St. Justin Martyr, writing in 150 AD tells us:

"We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins annd for regeneration, and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread nor as common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our flesh and blood is nourished, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnated Jesus."​
Keep in mind too G&P, there was NO "Roman Catholic Church" as we know it today, during 110AD and 150AD...there was nothing but the CHURCH...the One, Holy, Apostolic Church centered around Five (5) Patriarchates of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria...therefore, this is no invention of the Roman Catholic Church...the Roman Catholic Church may have taken the doctrine and developed it more so than what it should've been, but the fact remains...the bread and actual wine, has always been viewed as the Body and Blood of Christ.

Therefore, from the first followers of our Lord Himself, through the Apostle Paul and the first leaders of the post Apostolic early Church, the Real Presence of our Lord can be seen to be an accepted teaching from the very beginning. It was only after the so-called "reformation" that any different teaching even existed! Martin Luther himself believed firmly in the Real Presence. It was not until the German Zwingli in 1519 that the idea that the Eucharist was merely a "memorial" appeared!

We need to know - are we speaking of the same thing? Could they very well be agreeing with the Baptist interpretation instead of the Catholic interpretation? Just because they use the same words - does it mean the same thing? I don't know. But if they believe as the Catholic church believes, then we can see that they were in error. We know that the church had error very early on so it would not be beyond the possibility.
 

Grace&Truth

New Member
and that's simply your interpretation of John 6...it's NOT the consensus of the Church over a 2,000 year period...from the beginning...yours is a modern interpretation, because your protestant denomination is a modern one...

They took Christ at His Word, so why shouldn't we? If the Eucharist is merely a memorial and merely bread and wine, as your denomination preaches, then why does the Holy Apostle Paul warn us that:

"For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep." (1 Corinthians 11:29-30).​

Would ordinary bread and wine make people sick or even cause them to die?

It is very clear from the writings of the early Church that, if the Church got it "wrong", they did so at a very early stage! The writings of St. Ignatius makes this very clear:

"Do not err, my brethren,: if anyone follow a schismatic he will not inherit the kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care then to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons." (Letter to the Philadephians 3, 3-4) written around 110 AD.​
And in his letter to the Smyrnaeans:

"From Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His loving-kindness raised from the dead. And so, those who question the gift of God perish in their contentiousness. It would be better for them to have love, so as to share in the resurrection. It is proper, therefore, to avoid associating with such people and not to speak about them either in private or in public, but to study the Prophets attentively and, especially, the Gospel, in which the Passion is revealed to us and the Resurrection shown in its fulfillment. Shun division as the beginning of evil."​

And St. Justin Martyr, writing in 150 AD tells us:

"We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins annd for regeneration, and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread nor as common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our flesh and blood is nourished, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnated Jesus."​
Keep in mind too G&P, there was NO "Roman Catholic Church" as we know it today, during 110AD and 150AD...there was nothing but the CHURCH...the One, Holy, Apostolic Church centered around Five (5) Patriarchates of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria...therefore, this is no invention of the Roman Catholic Church...the Roman Catholic Church may have taken the doctrine and developed it more so than what it should've been, but the fact remains...the bread and actual wine, has always been viewed as the Body and Blood of Christ.

Therefore, from the first followers of our Lord Himself, through the Apostle Paul and the first leaders of the post Apostolic early Church, the Real Presence of our Lord can be seen to be an accepted teaching from the very beginning. It was only after the so-called "reformation" that any different teaching even existed! Martin Luther himself believed firmly in the Real Presence. It was not until the German Zwingli in 1519 that the idea that the Eucharist was merely a "memorial" appeared!

Lets just be honest....the Bible says what the Bible says....all this other is their (your) interpretation. All I did was read, quote and apply the scriptures. Sorry I will be consistant and apply the scriptures in the context of what Jesus said not man's interpretation or practice of it. He said He is the bread (not literal). He did not ever say the bread becomes Him. That is just made up and is not consistant with any other teaching on salvation.
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
We need to know - are we speaking of the same thing? Could they very well be agreeing with the Baptist interpretation instead of the Catholic interpretation? Just because they use the same words - does it mean the same thing?
read the quotes again...do they sound like baptist interpretations?

But if they believe as the Catholic church believes, then we can see that they were in error. We know that the church had error very early on so it would not be beyond the possibility.
Hmmmm...you say..."if they believe as the Catholic church believes"...first, I'm gonna guess when you say "Catholic church", you're speaking of the "Roman Catholic Church"...let me be the first to tell you...there was NO "Roman Catholic Church" as we know it today in 110 AD.

...and how do you know that your baptist interpretation isn't what's in error...how do we not know that it's the future baptist churches interpretation that St. Ignatius is referring to in his Letter to the Philadephians I quoted from?

Is there any Baptist writings from the 100's AD that state your baptist position?
 

Grace&Truth

New Member
yes, let's be honest...you interpret the bible based on the baptist tradition...if not, you wouldn't be baptist...

Honestly, I don't think when I stand before God that I will be able to say well you should let me into heaven because I understood your Word/Salvation from a Baptist interpretation. The same for you, You will not be able to say, "the ECF taught this interpretation and because they lived so close to the time period of your Apostles they must of practiced and taught the Truth."
God gave us His Word and His Holy Spirit so that we can understand His Word and know for sure how to be saved. I base my faith on what the Word of God says and I check everything that I read and hear by what God says in His Word. Sorry I cannot see your interpretation found or proved from clear passages in the Word of God. John 6 does not say what you are trying to make it say.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
..there was NO "Roman Catholic Church" as we know it today, during 110AD and 150AD...there was nothing but the CHURCH...the One, Holy, Apostolic Church centered around Five (5) Patriarchates of Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria...
I agree with everything in your post except for this bit which is slightly inaccurate: the Patriarchate of Constantinople was only established by the Fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon) in 451. indeed it only became a bishopric after 330.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Lets just be honest....the Bible says what the Bible says....all this other is their (your) interpretation. All I did was read, quote and apply the scriptures.
Yes, well, they all say that, don't they? I could equally say that the memorialist slant on the Bread of Life Discourse which your expounding here is just your interpretation. Let's be honest here and admit that we all appriach Scripture through the lens of our own experiences, culture and denominational traditions; anything less than that is blatant intellectual dishonesty.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
We need to know - are we speaking of the same thing? Could they very well be agreeing with the Baptist interpretation instead of the Catholic interpretation? Just because they use the same words - does it mean the same thing? I don't know. But if they believe as the Catholic church believes, then we can see that they were in error. We know that the church had error very early on so it would not be beyond the possibility.

Thats a very good question Annsi. How do you propose in answering it? We know their words. We know that Transubstantiation is a more modern consept. So they couldn't mean that exactly. Especially since the term is an attempt to describe what these early writers were saying. However, the churches that were existant at that time have teachings regarding it such as also the Orthodox and the Copts. We know they feel these writing are refering to a real spiritual presence in the elements of communion what is known as Eucharist. So how do we determine exactly what it was they were talking about?
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Yes, well, they all say that, don't they? I could equally say that the memorialist slant on the Bread of Life Discourse which your expounding here is just your interpretation. Let's be honest here and admit that we all appriach Scripture through the lens of our own experiences, culture and denominational traditions; anything less than that is blatant intellectual dishonesty.

the basic truth is that we all have colored glasses by which we view scripture. And the one most often taken for granted is our modern culture and morals.
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
I agree with everything in your post except for this bit which is slightly inaccurate: the Patriarchate of Constantinople was only established by the Fourth Ecumenical Council (Chalcedon) in 451. indeed it only became a bishopric after 330.
yes Matt, you're correct...my point to make was that there was no "Roman Catholic Church" as we know it today, when the quotes I referenced concerning the Eucharist were written...B/C all we hear on the BB is that the RCC invented this, developed that...
-
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
I see the infantile level of maturity has once again been exhibited by those who love to ingratiate themselves with the power to "ban". Sure, I know tha "mantra", 'this is a private board". yes it is, but if you keep banning you will no longer have anyone to bash and beat up on.
 

targus

New Member
I see the infantile level of maturity has once again been exhibited by those who love to ingratiate themselves with the power to "ban". Sure, I know tha "mantra", 'this is a private board". yes it is, but if you keep banning you will no longer have anyone to bash and beat up on.

Watch it - you could be next. :smilewinkgrin:
 

Melanie

Active Member
Site Supporter
I see the infantile level of maturity has once again been exhibited by those who love to ingratiate themselves with the power to "ban". Sure, I know tha "mantra", 'this is a private board". yes it is, but if you keep banning you will no longer have anyone to bash and beat up on.


:laugh::D:thumbsup::love2:
 
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