Well I did give that "hint" above -- and in your objection you provide no Bible evidence at all that being under Christ's condemnation is "a kind of Gospel".
in Christ,
Bob
There is no condemnation (hell) spoken of in the text. So again, conjecture is not exegesis.
I also show the statement from Bible commentaries where the result of actual Christians in Ephesus was seen to dwindle to next-to-nill.
And the commentary said nothing about condemnation (hell), this is your conjecture.
Thus the Eph 2 was a warning of future dire consequences that do not show anything like "glorious salvation and full acceptance by Christ" as you may have at first imagined.
So you add your own conjecture and then say "see". Exegesis does not work that way.
We read nothing of salvation nor of condemnation in the text. Who has the imagination here?
Since you provide no evidence at all (on the other hand) for your own position, the ball is still in your court.
So you point to a text to show a Christian leaving Jesus unto condemnation of hell and then you think I should provide the exgesis to prove you wrong?
Your the one who entered into this debate boasting of Rev 2 condemning Christians to hell. I asked you to prove it through exegesis which you cannot. So now you want me to do the exegesis.
"Pretending not to notice" the hints and details contained in the posts as you do - is not a compelling form of debate as it turns out.
The only thing I noticed was your conjectures. You have failed to show salvation or condemnation revealed in the text.
As it turns out, conjecture is not a compelling form of exgesis.
Hint the saved condition is not that of being under condemnation of Christ and having the lampstand removed - so as to be in the same darkened condition as the rest of the world.
1) the text says nothing about salvation, saved, born of God, regenerated.
2) the text says nothing about condemnation unto hell
Here is a true factual "hint" for you; a candlestick is not a candle, it holds the candle. Do a little research through the scriptures and you will find this obvious truth.
See how I use biblical facts and avoid conjecture? I let the text say only what it actually says. I need not twist, reword or interject anything in order to support my position. I have mountains of text that speak of the believers eternal security in Christ. Conjecture would only make me look like I didn't take the time to study.
Nowhere in scripture will you find the candlestick representing salvation. If you can, show me where, it cannot be just because you say so. Otherwise, admit your error and abandon this text as a loss of salvation passage. It is an impossible battle ground for you to win.
Since you do not want to properly exgesis this verse in question I will help the board out so as not to allow your conjectures to lead anyone astray on this point.
Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Do we see what a candlestick is? We are told from the scripture itself (no conjecture) that it represents a "church" (not an individual person within a church).
Then we move on to the seven letters to the seven churches.
Rev 2:1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
See how there are "seven" candlesticks? Not millions or billions, "seven". Are we to believe that there are only seven saved individuals living at the time of this writing? I should think not.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works;
Do works save a person?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Obviously this is not about individual salvation for works do not save.
.......or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
What then is the "
candlestick" threated to be removed? The scripture already told us, it is the "
church" (Rev 1:20). Nothing to do with salvation.
What are the
"first works" that are to be done else the
church/candlestick be removed? The scripture plainly tells us (no conjecture btw)
thou hast left thy first love........repent, and do the first works" .
It is the
"first works of love" that are being neglected and a church that does not love as Christ loved will not grow by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus will not be filling it with disciples, rather He will remove it as a "church" so it will not be an effectually bad influence for the name of Christ.
There it is. No conjectures, no individual eternal security spoken of, no condemnation to hell spoken of, only pure bible interpreting bible.
:jesus:
